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11-28-2007, 11:35 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
My fellow Pentaxians,

I apologize in advance if this sounds like carping, but well, I do need to carp. If you, as I am, are in the market for a fast-for-sports F2.8 telephoto zoom to fit your digital Pentax, then you'll probably understand fully and completely what I'm about to say. After a solid month (maybe two now) of searching, I've come to the realization that unless I pony up 2K to purchase a used FA* 80-200 F2.8 from the Japanese eBay store (2 copies listed as we speak), I am just not going to get my hands on "pro" quality, auto focus glass.

The next best option you ask? Well that of course would be Sigma's well reviewed 70-200 F2.8. You know the one that can't be had anywhere new right now and is only occasionally offered up on eBay or elsewhere. For what it's worth, the last eBay seller I saw to post one had 0 feedback and the one currently FS here in the forum is looking to sell US only. Aargh.

Oh and as for putting out 2K for that aforementioned FA* lense from another perspective?

2K would buy me both a new 30D and a used (excellent) 70-200 F2.8L ultrasonic.
2K would buy me both a new D80 and a new 80-200 F2.8 D MACRO ED.

Not that I want this discussion to turn into a brand war; far from it. I post this information just for general comparison sake. Personally, I have only used Pentax SLR products. I love my K10D and all of it's wonderful features. That said, someone - ANYONE - at Pentax has to get their act together and do something for us.

*end rant*

As an aside, I would hate to just be an anonymous complainer, so if anyone can direct me to the necessary Pentax e-mail addresses, I'll gladly take my rant to them directly and not bore this excellent forum any longer.

Thanks,

Rob
Well, you missed a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 with a $900 Buy-It-Now on Ebay which is running right now...

It is hardly the fault of Pentax that Tamron or Sigma are not yet offering certain products in the K mount, is it?

To reiterate, the 50-135 f2.8 is what Pentax has designed to replace the old 80-200 f2.8. I understand that this is not exactly what you are looking for, but none of this should be a surprise to anyone buying into Pentax that did even a tiny bit of homework before diving into the pool:

It has been pretty clear for years that the non-Pentax suppliers were not making anything new in the K mount (until the success of the K10D drove them to recently announce that they would soon do so). These manufacturers even responded to past emails asking for K mount lenses with the fact that they were not planning on making any, but regradless, a simple review of the Tamron/Sigma/Tokina web site product listings would have shown you that they had no current products for Pentax in the category you are looking for.

The Pentax lens roadmap has been out for years now, and the longer teles have always been near the end of the timeline (and for good business reasons).

There have never been many pro Pentax 35mm shooters, and very few shooting sports, so that means that the older pro Pentax glass never sold in anywhere near the quantities that the Canon and Nikon lenses did, so therefore the supply of used Pentax (or other brand) lenses in this category is relatively small. Given the laws of supply and demand, that means when lenses do show up used, they will fetch a pretty high price at least until Pentax and Sigma and whoever roll out the new tele zooms. No surprise here.

While prices have gone up, in some cases to ridiculous levels, with some patience, you can find what you need and not pay a stupid price for it.

In the not so distant past I have purchased the following lenses at decent prices, all used:

Sigma 70-200 F2.8
Sigma 135-400 f4-5.6
Tamron 28-70 f2.8

+ several more, but all at pretty good prices.

Ebay has become the worst place for any sort of bargain, and has even driven up prices of items not listed there as everyone does a search before selling anything these days, proviong the laws of supply and demand once again.

I have purchased some of these lenses from Craigslist and others from used camera sites I have discovered over the years.

So, you are correct that Pentax has placed the lowest priority on producing the longer teles, but I would be willing to bet that these lenses will not sell even 50% as many units as the shorter zooms and primes (likely much less than that), so if you were having to allocate scarce design and manufacturing resources, what decision would you make?

I do not mean to be harsh, but at the end of the day, you are a victim of your own decision to buy into the Pentax system needing something that you should have known was not widely available and that was not going to be available from Pentax or anyone else for some unspecified time in the future.

Given that, you should re-direct that email you were going to write to Pentax to yourself...

Ray

11-28-2007, 02:18 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Well, you missed a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 with a $900 Buy-It-Now on Ebay which is running right now...
Yes, I did, unfortunately. Damn I hate when life/work/kids get in the way, LOL.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
I do not mean to be harsh, but at the end of the day, you are a victim of your own decision to buy into the Pentax system needing something that you should have known was not widely available and that was not going to be available from Pentax or anyone else for some unspecified time in the future.
No, you're not being harsh, you're simply stating your opinion. I respect that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Given that, you should re-direct that email you were going to write to Pentax to yourself...

Ray
Sure thing, and while I'm at it, I'll repeat THE CUSTOMER IS NEVER RIGHT a million times while studying every known photography book, encyclopedia, brochure, website, and technical manual to make sure that I am never a "vicitim" of my own decision again.

Seriously now, how can you turn this around on me? I am a loyal user and "fan" of the Pentax product. I have invested considerable time and $ in what I feel is the best (reasonably priced) dSLR on the market. If Pentax is truly interested in becoming the number three player in the dSLR game, do you honestly think they can do so with paper promises of lenses on a future "road map"? Will Pentax be able to keep current users (such as myself) or attract new users who may be close to buying a K10 and are lurking in this forum and reading threads like this?

Sorry AGAIN for ranting, but at the end of the day, it's all about customer appreciation and satisfaction. I am VERY satisfied with my decision to purchase a K10D. I'd LIKE to be satisfied with my lens options too.

That's all folks.

My quest continues. I'll have to keep an eye on the eBay auction, thanks for the lead. Any other F2.8 telephoto leads would be great appreciated as well.

Cheers,

Rob
11-28-2007, 04:39 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by SupremeMoFo Quote
No, he means the field of view, ie the actual focal length and what it captures. ...
Sorry it is wrong.
The field of view gets smaller when the focal length gets longer.

The advantages of a longer focal length lens are, when everything else is the same, larger image on the sensor/picture and narrower DOF.
11-28-2007, 05:12 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by ddhytz Quote
Sorry it is wrong.
The field of view gets smaller when the focal length gets longer.

The advantages of a longer focal length lens are, when everything else is the same, larger image on the sensor/picture and narrower DOF.
A typical hockey rink is 200 feet in length. With *only* 135mm, I can cover just one of the three "zones" adequately. If I had the 80-200 or 70-200, I would be able to stretch that to two zones and therefore theoretically double the amount of opportunities to capture the game action. Alternatively, at 135mm, I can fill the viewfinder from head to toe. With the longer zoom, I could do the same but I could zoom in for a tight head shot or a torso-up shot; both of which would produce better (sharper) results than using post processing crops to do the same.

11-28-2007, 05:20 PM   #20
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sensor crop and focal length - clarification

This post is for the benefit of the newcomers to photography, not those who understand.... just so we're clear here...

Sensor crop is not a substitute for actual focal length - it never has been, and never will be... the lens focal length decides the magnification of the object, not the sensor. Only the field of view is affected, and the object is no closer than before if you used the same lens on a film or DSLR body (regardless of the sensor size).

Regards,
Marc
11-28-2007, 05:52 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
Yes, I did, unfortunately. Damn I hate when life/work/kids get in the way, LOL.



No, you're not being harsh, you're simply stating your opinion. I respect that.



Sure thing, and while I'm at it, I'll repeat THE CUSTOMER IS NEVER RIGHT a million times while studying every known photography book, encyclopedia, brochure, website, and technical manual to make sure that I am never a "vicitim" of my own decision again.

Seriously now, how can you turn this around on me? I am a loyal user and "fan" of the Pentax product. I have invested considerable time and $ in what I feel is the best (reasonably priced) dSLR on the market. If Pentax is truly interested in becoming the number three player in the dSLR game, do you honestly think they can do so with paper promises of lenses on a future "road map"? Will Pentax be able to keep current users (such as myself) or attract new users who may be close to buying a K10 and are lurking in this forum and reading threads like this?

Sorry AGAIN for ranting, but at the end of the day, it's all about customer appreciation and satisfaction. I am VERY satisfied with my decision to purchase a K10D. I'd LIKE to be satisfied with my lens options too.

That's all folks.

My quest continues. I'll have to keep an eye on the eBay auction, thanks for the lead. Any other F2.8 telephoto leads would be great appreciated as well.

Cheers,

Rob
Rob,

So let me make sure I understand your logic:

Pentax is mis-treating it's customers because:

1. Sigma does not offer a fast 80-200 in PK mount

2. Ditto Tamron

3. Ditto Tokina

4. Pentax apparently has no plans to make a 80-200 f2.8 but has instead released what they feel is the APS equivalent (the 50-135 f2.8)


If you disagree with Pentax about that decision, that is fine, but they have already released the lens they feel replaces the old lens you find too expensive and scarce. So, yes, Pentax disagrees with you in that they do not seem to have any plans to release a new 80-200 f2.8 as far as I know, but they have placed a product on the market that they feel fills the same role as the old lens. So tell me again how Pentax has not addressed the exact part of the market that the old lens used to serve?

As for turning this on you, I am sorry if the truth hurts, but no one forced you to buy Pentax instead of Nikon or Canon, you made that decision, and I submit to you that everything you are unhappy about was something you could have known when you bought Pentax. I have never heard even a single rumor about Pentax designing a new 80-200 f2.8, so if this range is so important to you, I would ask once again, how is it Pentax's fault that you bought into a system and wanting/needing a lens that they no longer make and have no plans to ever make, all of which was and is widely known?

Ray
11-28-2007, 08:15 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Pulley Quote
Rob,

So let me make sure I understand your logic:

Pentax is mis-treating it's customers because:

1. Sigma does not offer a fast 80-200 in PK mount

2. Ditto Tamron

3. Ditto Tokina

4. Pentax apparently has no plans to make a 80-200 f2.8 but has instead released what they feel is the APS equivalent (the 50-135 f2.8)


Ray
Ray,

I'll kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that Pentax is mistreating customers on account of third party decision making. What I said was, with my K10D, I have limited (or no) options to choose from - genuine Pentax or otherwise - when it comes to fast telephoto glass of the "pro" quality.

Hence, the rant.

Now, as for your assumption that I could have known about "this range", well begrudgingly, I will admit you are correct. However, in my defence, when I was about to drop my first thousand dollars, I spent all of my time researching the camera body (*ist DS vs. Rebel XT vs. D50) with the presumption that I could find the necessary glass at a later date. Turns out, that presumption was "my bad" as the kids say these days. Not my first, won't be my last either.
11-28-2007, 09:26 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilm_user Quote
This post is for the benefit of the newcomers to photography, not those who understand.... just so we're clear here...

Sensor crop is not a substitute for actual focal length - it never has been, and never will be... the lens focal length decides the magnification of the object
.... and I'll add, perspective.

11-28-2007, 09:35 PM   #24
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Time will come when Sigma and Tamron release 2.8 telephotos. Till then, its off to old primes and a Vivitar 70-210/3.5 we go.
11-28-2007, 09:44 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
My fellow Pentaxians,

I apologize in advance if this sounds like carping, but well, I do need to carp. If you, as I am, are in the market for a fast-for-sports F2.8 telephoto zoom to fit your digital Pentax, then you'll probably understand fully and completely what I'm about to say. After a solid month (maybe two now) of searching, I've come to the realization that unless I pony up 2K to purchase a used FA* 80-200 F2.8 from the Japanese eBay store (2 copies listed as we speak), I am just not going to get my hands on "pro" quality, auto focus glass.

The next best option you ask? Well that of course would be Sigma's well reviewed 70-200 F2.8. You know the one that can't be had anywhere new right now and is only occasionally offered up on eBay or elsewhere. For what it's worth, the last eBay seller I saw to post one had 0 feedback and the one currently FS here in the forum is looking to sell US only. Aargh.

Oh and as for putting out 2K for that aforementioned FA* lense from another perspective?

2K would buy me both a new 30D and a used (excellent) 70-200 F2.8L ultrasonic.
2K would buy me both a new D80 and a new 80-200 F2.8 D MACRO ED.

Not that I want this discussion to turn into a brand war; far from it. I post this information just for general comparison sake.
I was in the same situation. Not only is Pentax unable to supply a high performance fast lens reaching to 200-300mm, but the AF speed using a Sigma screw drive lens (like my APO 100-300mm f4 EX DG) is inadequate for sports/action use. The DA* 50-135mm f2.8 SDM does focus faster, but that lens is too short for outdoor sports use, and the AF system in the K10D does not do predictive AF on a par with Nikon or Canon. Even if the FA* lens was still in production, the performance with old screw drive AF and the current Pentax AF system would be below that of the competition.

I gave up on complaining about the problem, sold my Pentax digital gear and got a Nikon D80, a Nikkor 70-200mm f2.8 G VR with a matching TC-14eII teleconverter. Well, it did exceed $2000 but I've had the use of this rig since early September and have several hundred fine action shots of my son's fall soccer season -- shots that were difficult or impossible to produce with my Pentax kit. I hope that at some point in the future Pentax can finally get some long lenses in production and can improve the AF performance of their camera with fast moving targets. In the meantime, your best option is Nikon or Canon. I'm not slamming Pentax; I'm simply reporting my own experience.
11-29-2007, 12:08 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryML Quote
...
I gave up on complaining about the problem, sold my Pentax digital gear and got a Nikon D80, a Nikkor 70-200mm f2.8 G VR with a matching TC-14eII teleconverter. ...
If I had the same problem I would do the same. Nothing wrong with changing system if existing one does not provide what you need. It's your money, anyway.

For the time being I am happy with Pentax gear I have.
11-29-2007, 02:52 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
You didn't understand me.

Yes, the 50-135 is plenty small. As a matter of fact, I would have liked it to be bigger and a 50-135/2.0. Or, I would have liked a slightly smaller version (which is possible) of the FA* 80-200/2.8 without comprimising the focal length.

And to answer your other question - of course I would pay ~$1,600 or more for one of those. As the OP clearly states, if you want that focal length right now you'd have to pay more than that - for a used copy.
Well like I said there's no such thing as a f2.0 zoom for ANY APS-C system. As for the 80-200, it wasn't going to happen. Noone else has done that either. What you're wishing for are things that don't exist on any system other than 4-3rds.
11-29-2007, 09:15 AM   #28
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I understand your pain, I would love to get my hands on an FA* 80-200mm 2.8, and as soon as I booked my trip I found one locally here selling for 2k. And now I have to constantly sit here and stare at it as I can't buy it. The 70-200mm 2.8 Sigma is a bit easier to find, but not much, and still, finding one in good condition that I can't actually look at in person scares me.
11-29-2007, 11:34 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by SouthShoreRob Quote
Ray,

I'll kindly ask you to stop putting words in my mouth. I never suggested that Pentax is mistreating customers on account of third party decision making. What I said was, with my K10D, I have limited (or no) options to choose from - genuine Pentax or otherwise - when it comes to fast telephoto glass of the "pro" quality.

Hence, the rant.

Now, as for your assumption that I could have known about "this range", well begrudgingly, I will admit you are correct. However, in my defence, when I was about to drop my first thousand dollars, I spent all of my time researching the camera body (*ist DS vs. Rebel XT vs. D50) with the presumption that I could find the necessary glass at a later date. Turns out, that presumption was "my bad" as the kids say these days. Not my first, won't be my last either.
Ok, let's use your words then:

You started a thread where you made it clear you were ranting (I presume this means you are not a happy customer in some respects) and you post stuff like this:

"I love my K10D and all of it's wonderful features. That said, someone - ANYONE - at Pentax has to get their act together and do something for us."


Uhhh, they did. It is the 50-135 f2.8 and that lens was on the roadmap for over a year before they released it. Get over it.

and this:

"Sure thing, and while I'm at it, I'll repeat THE CUSTOMER IS NEVER RIGHT a million times while studying every known photography book, encyclopedia, brochure, website, and technical manual to make sure that I am never a "vicitim" of my own decision again. "

Seems pretty clear to me that you feel that Pentax has wronged "The Customer" somehow. Isn't wrong the opposite of right? Isn't "NEVER RIGHT" the same as wrong?

and this:

"Sorry AGAIN for ranting, but at the end of the day, it's all about customer appreciation and satisfaction. I am VERY satisfied with my decision to purchase a K10D. I'd LIKE to be satisfied with my lens options too."

Toyota does not offer a 500hp Corvette either, and I know of no plans for them to do so, so I guess I would have to buy a Chevrolet to make sure that I am satisfied with my sports car options if I really wanted a Corvette. I guess I could buy a Camry and go on the internet and complain that Toyota does not offer a Corvette, but I fail to see the logic in that....

As for third party decision-making, your OP starts with the fact that the FA* 80-200 lenses that are readily available on EBay right now are too expensive for you. Note that they are available, however. I am pretty sure that Pentax does not set Ebay prices, so perhaps you should have left this out of your rant if you were not trying to blame Pentax for third party decisions.

You then go on (still ranting) about how you cannot find Sigma's or other brands either while there are at least two fast sigma zooms for sale right now that I am aware of. See my comments above about irrelevant comments about third party decisions.

You included these statements in your rant, not me.

You then end the OP with the statement about Pentax getting their act together as if they had done nothing to address the market that was served by the 80-200 f2.8, which is simply untrue. They just did not design exactly what you wanted and apparently never had any plans to do so and perhaps never will.

So, you laid out your frustration with various aspects of your situation, and then ended by blaming Pentax for not getting their act together. Hmmm, seems like Pentax is to blame for all of the afore-metioned woes, at least the way I read your post.

At the end of the day, you simply do not want to pay to get what you want right now, but you do not want to wait either.

The term childish comes to mind...

Ray
11-29-2007, 12:38 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
That old for-film lens will only end up producing phantom pixels for you.
So can I say my K10D has 16MP*? I can't wait to tell Corbis about this!!!


* Calculation based on the addition of phantom pixels produced by the FA* lens to actual pixels on the sensor.
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