Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-08-2011, 12:53 PM   #46
Pentaxian
Just1MoreDave's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Aurora, CO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 4,858
QuoteOriginally posted by minahasa Quote
ISO bumping is a game played mostly by Canonian, I think

K20D is not that good on high ISO, not even as good as my previous K100Ds. I've tried ISO bumping to a point that noise is still acceptable for my eyes, which is at /20 sec. - ISO 800 - F4. Can go to /30 sec - ISO 1600 F4, but only when there is not much shadow or blackness in the frame. But hey, don't we all want better results?
The idea is to go beyond the point where noise is visible or acceptable, to where it adds character. It looks like the K20D has the same totally unusable ISO 6400 that I have on the K-7. I'd try that. Later in processing, use the wrong WB. Use some of the effects you never considered before. I think it might look cool.

09-08-2011, 01:22 PM   #47
Veteran Member
RioRico's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Limbo, California
Posts: 11,264
I should have qualified my "let the ISO float as far as possible" comment -- I usually max-out at 2400-3200. But 6400 on the K20D is quite usable IN BRIGHTLY-LIT SCENES. Yes, shadow noise is pretty intolerable, especially in colour. So try 3200-6400 with well-lit action shots. Maybe overexpose a little, EV+1 or so; see the recent ETTR (expose to the right) threads here. You got it right, minahasa -- avoid darkness/blackness in the frame.

And I mentioned the pushed-Tri-X effect. Shoot in B&W with appropriate filtration, noise-reduction off, contrast and sharpness boosted. Shoot RAW; those JPG settings will carry-over as defaults into your RAW developer, and you can tweak as needed.
09-08-2011, 07:23 PM   #48
Pentaxian
audiobomber's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,684
QuoteOriginally posted by minahasa Quote
K20D is not that good on high ISO, not even as good as my previous K100Ds.
That's not correct. The K20D is about 2/3 stop better at high ISO than the K100D. To compare them you have to disable noise reduction on both and compare at the same resolution. In other words, you have to print both to the same size or display them at the same pixel level. If you look at pixel level noise, it will look like the K20 is noisier. If you compare both at 6mp, the noise on the K20 will be lower. I know this because I have done the test myself, but it was common knowledge when the K20 was first released.
09-08-2011, 11:13 PM   #49
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi)
Photos: Albums
Posts: 585
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
That's not correct. The K20D is about 2/3 stop better at high ISO than the K100D. To compare them you have to disable noise reduction on both and compare at the same resolution. In other words, you have to print both to the same size or display them at the same pixel level. If you look at pixel level noise, it will look like the K20 is noisier. If you compare both at 6mp, the noise on the K20 will be lower. I know this because I have done the test myself, but it was common knowledge when the K20 was first released.
I'm not much of a pix peep, so I see what I see on my laptop LCD and regular postcard print. K100D is definitely look better especially on ISO 800. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a newer and stronger camera, K20D 'noise management' is much worse than K100D.

One day I might enjoy going grainy on digitals, but today I left that for my SP.

09-09-2011, 05:13 AM   #50
Pentaxian
audiobomber's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,684
QuoteOriginally posted by minahasa Quote
I'm not much of a pix peep, so I see what I see on my laptop LCD and regular postcard print. K100D is definitely look better especially on ISO 800. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a newer and stronger camera, K20D 'noise management' is much worse than K100D.
Somehow you're ending up with the wrong conclusion. Do you have both cameras there to compare, or are you going by memory?

The K20D has lower noise than the K100D and more noise reduction options. The K100D has two settings, NR ON, NR OFF. The factory default is NR ON. The K20D has four settings, OFF, WEAKEST, WEAK, STRONG. Factory default is OFF, so unless you've selected another option, you aren't using any NR. Set your K20D to WEAK and you should see a clear jump past the K100 at high ISO.

I don't know what threshold the noise reduction starts on the K100D. With the K20D I believe it's ISO 1600, so at 800 it shouldn't even be in play. If you aren't happy with ISO 800 noise, have you tried NR software? There is amazing detail in a K20D photo, far more than any 6mp camera. You can afford to give some up if you're bothered by noise. Try Noiseware, it is a free program that's extremely capable.

The K20D has lower noise at high ISO than any previous Pentax camera. I'd rather not spend time re-doing a test result that I've already established for myself. Instead I would just point you to DXOMark. They didn't test the K100D but they tested the Nikon D40, which uses the exact same sensor. They test is in raw with no NR, so the D40 performance will be identical to the K100D. You can clearly see from this graph, DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side, that the sensor in the K20D outperforms the 6mp sensor for dynamic range and sensitivity at every ISO.

Last edited by audiobomber; 09-09-2011 at 05:41 AM.
09-09-2011, 08:45 AM   #51
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi)
Photos: Albums
Posts: 585
Original Poster
I set NR mostly to STRONG. WEAK if I needed a little more detail.
Well, I do believe that k20D is a better camera in all. About the noise factor, did not test extensively using a more sophisticated method rather than comparing my K100D and K20D result images by seeing it on my computer monitor and small prints. On these media, the size of sensor factor could turn to either good or bad. K100D smaller 6 mpx (and the fact that it is CCD) sensor seems to be an advantage when it comes to shooting low light. On bigger prints or cropping, off course the 14 mpx is a beast. Again, because my indicator is as simple as eyesight, the noise handling of K20D 'looks' grainier to the archaic K100D.

This is K100Ds without turning on the NR, ISO 1600:


This is K20D without turning on the NR, ISO 1600:


I had D40 for a month before going Pentax
And this is D40 without turning on the NR, ISO 1600:


All images resized to 800 x ... no further editing.

Last edited by minahasa; 09-09-2011 at 08:59 AM.
09-10-2011, 05:43 AM   #52
Pentaxian
audiobomber's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sudbury, Ontario
Photos: Albums
Posts: 6,684
You can only compare the same image under the same conditions, not random different images.
09-10-2011, 06:42 AM   #53
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi)
Photos: Albums
Posts: 585
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
You can only compare the same image under the same conditions, not random different images.
Yes, I know that. But, my eyes sees more than just one pic of those cams, so why should I put my trust on one particular image?

Anyway, back to the original subject, still no luck on my 'wanted' listing

09-10-2011, 06:47 AM   #54
Inactive Account




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,965
QuoteOriginally posted by minahasa Quote
Yes, I know that. But, my eyes sees more than just one pic of those cams, so why should I put my trust on one particular image? .....(
You posted those images for us to evaluate and we cannot evaluate without comparing to the same scene.

For good comparison only one variable should be changed.
09-10-2011, 07:47 AM   #55
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Minahasa, North Celebes (Sulawesi)
Photos: Albums
Posts: 585
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
You posted those images for us to evaluate and we cannot evaluate without comparing to the same scene.

For good comparison only one variable should be changed.
Oh no, I posted those pics to show you a bit of taste about what leads me to my believe, which off course is a matter of personal taste I'm saying that, after having experience with those cams, looking into hundreds of pics, I can't help myself favoring K100Ds for less grainy low-light shots. I believe in my senses.

If there were extensive testing with valid scientific methods that resulted in the superiority of K20D in terms of better noise handling, who am I to say otherwise? But you see, I have went Canon, Nikon, and Sony before a breathtaking sensual encounter that leads me into falling in love with Pentax
09-14-2011, 10:52 PM   #56
Pentaxian
Marc Sabatella's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Denver, CO
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 10,686
Yes, but your images only show how easy it is to be deceived if you don't do a real comparison. rhere is no possible oom for doubt - if you do a proper comparison, the K20D will win, very clearly and obviously.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
af, k-mount, lens, pentax lens, really-really, slr lens
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
very cheap k-7 w/ lens jkglogau Pentax Price Watch 102 10-20-2010 02:09 PM
Cheap lens PaladinPete Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 13 04-25-2010 12:34 AM
For Sale - Sold: [US] 2 Cheap ME Supers, 1 Cheap ME - Pentax film bodies Just1MoreDave Sold Items 2 02-21-2010 02:11 PM
Forget the cheap DA normal lens, where's our cheap DA portrait lens? EricT Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 31 10-04-2009 02:01 PM
Cheap manual lens on cheap extension tube with cheap flash! Also cats. pasipasi Post Your Photos! 12 08-28-2008 04:43 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:57 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top