Problem with (not cheap) eBay lens, what should I do?

MegaPower · 11-30-2011, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Philoslothical

It can go either way, as I said it's at Ebay's discretion. The point of this policy is to handle problem sellers who aren't cooperative about partial or full refunds where they should be, and sellers that purposely deceive people about condition or authenticity.

This is what exactly I got in my experience.
Seller was not co-operative with refunds and made up the "bad condition" of the returned item.

excanonfd · 12-01-2011, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Philoslothical

It verges on punishment for sellers that mislead, don't declare/admit defects, and refuse to work with sellers to resolve it, and it's entirely at Ebay's discretion. If you're a seller, it's scary, if you're a buyer, it makes good sense. It's just as much stealing to sell a broken item as working, or a fake item as genuine, to my mind.

The seller is either going to come to an agreement with the buyer on the amount of the partial refund, or he will ask for the lens to be shipped back for refund and the OP has already indicated that he wants to keep the lens. Punish the seller for misrepresentation - the seller might not know much about camera equipments (a lot of buyers deliberately look for scant or poor descriptions, or misspelled brand names in the hope of obtaining bargains) - no thanks, I like it the way it is.

Philoslothical · 12-01-2011, 12:49 AM

I'm not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of Ebay's Buyer Protection policy - it's clearly not perfect. I was just trying to let OP know that if the seller is difficult, he may have recourse.

I can see how the policy can be abused, but from what bits and pieces I've heard, Ebay is pretty sharp on punishing scamming buyers as well, at least some of the time.

I'll put it this way. You buy a lens, description says the usual "clean optics, minimal dust, etc etc" and you receive it full of fungus. Do you think you should be out the shipping to send it back? How about the initial shipping? A lot of sellers will try to get out of both. This kind of policy helps to compensate for these instances, as well as the sellers that take the "tough luck, you should have asked if it had fungus specifically" types.

excanonfd · 12-01-2011, 02:44 AM

Have you ever seen such an extreme case? I doubt it, unless the seller's intent was to scam the buyer from the beginning, in which case it becomes the seller's first and last attempt at fraud. I have bought quite a lot of photographic gear through eBay and I have on occasion received an item that was not as it was described. In all cases, the sellers were courteous and willing to come to an agreement, either a partial refund or return the item for a full refund. I opted for a partial refund in all cases, and none of the sellers ever quibbled about the amount I proposed as a partial refund. I also think that my experience with eBay so far, has been the norm and not the exception.

vanyagor · 12-01-2011, 04:46 AM

I did not have much luck with ebay/paypal buyers protection. If the item cost is not much higher than shipping, that "protection" is useless. Paypal will force you to ship the item back at your own expense basically and you will get the refund for the cost without the shipping. Which means you end up paying the sipping twice for nothing. (If I remember correctly the way it works)

StevePrime · 12-07-2011, 08:49 PM

The Zeiss is back from the shop, and everything seems much better.

My lens guy said that someone had taken the lens apart too far and didn't reassemble the helicoid correctly. The seller agreed to pay half of the repair, as I asked. My feeling is that he picked up the lens, then clicked off a few shots with his Praktica to make sure it "worked"... I don't think he knew there was a problem.

Here's the first test shot, wide-open, tripod @ 7 or 8 feet. ISO1600 (no NR-- gosh I love the k-x). Made the same shot with my Super-Tak 50/1.4 and 55/1.8, neither of them are this sharp even stepped down to f2.

Docrwm · 12-07-2011, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by excanonfd

Have you ever seen such an extreme case? I doubt it, unless the seller's intent was to scam the buyer from the beginning, in which case it becomes the seller's first and last attempt at fraud. I have bought quite a lot of photographic gear through eBay and I have on occasion received an item that was not as it was described. In all cases, the sellers were courteous and willing to come to an agreement, either a partial refund or return the item for a full refund. I opted for a partial refund in all cases, and none of the sellers ever quibbled about the amount I proposed as a partial refund. I also think that my experience with eBay so far, has been the norm and not the exception.

Not with a lens but I also collect watches. I bought a very high end watch via eBay from a seller with a VERY strong reputation on several high end watch sites. He put up a bunch of pictures, the description was solid, and the price was good but not excellent. It arrived with huge scratches on one side of the watch - the side that in retrospect it was clear was NOT in any of the photos

I approached him and asked for a partial refund to pay for the rehab that the watch needed. He basically said F-U to me. I did all this through eBays communication center - VERY IMPORTANT. I then said, please think about it because I do not want to involve PayPal. He again told me I was ...crazy. I then put it to them at PayPal, with photos of the scratches, and about 3 minutes after I posted it all to PayPal he refunded all but 1 cent of what I asked for. Do I think he did all that intentionally? You bet your...I do.

Oh, and glad that the OP got his lens fixed and what he asked for from the seller.

freerider · 12-07-2011, 11:51 PM

I would suggest communicating with the seller exclusively through ebay's messaging system so that ebay will have a complete record. You could also inform eBay that there may be a dispute to make clear that the lens was defective upon receipt and not the result of anything you did. This happened to me once and eBay noted the problem with the item and told me that they would monitor the situation. Best of luck.

HawaiianOnline · 12-08-2011, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by StevePrime

The Zeiss is back from the shop, and everything seems much better.

My lens guy said that someone had taken the lens apart too far and didn't reassemble the helicoid correctly. The seller agreed to pay half of the repair, as I asked. My feeling is that he picked up the lens, then clicked off a few shots with his Praktica to make sure it "worked"... I don't think he knew there was a problem.

Here's the first test shot, wide-open, tripod @ 7 or 8 feet. ISO1600 (no NR-- gosh I love the k-x). Made the same shot with my Super-Tak 50/1.4 and 55/1.8, neither of them are this sharp even stepped down to f2.

That looks nice and sharp!

excanonfd · 12-08-2011, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Docrwm

Not with a lens but I also collect watches. I bought a very high end watch via eBay from a seller with a VERY strong reputation on several high end watch sites. He put up a bunch of pictures, the description was solid, and the price was good but not excellent. It arrived with huge scratches on one side of the watch - the side that in retrospect it was clear was NOT in any of the photos

I approached him and asked for a partial refund to pay for the rehab that the watch needed. He basically said F-U to me. I did all this through eBays communication center - VERY IMPORTANT. I then said, please think about it because I do not want to involve PayPal. He again told me I was ...crazy. I then put it to them at PayPal, with photos of the scratches, and about 3 minutes after I posted it all to PayPal he refunded all but 1 cent of what I asked for. Do I think he did all that intentionally? You bet your...I do.

Oh, and glad that the OP got his lens fixed and what he asked for from the seller.

OP was able to come to an agreement which was satisfactory to both parties - which is what usually happens - and you got what you asked for by going through the proper channels of appeal. In the OP's case, the seller recognized that he did not check the lens over thoroughly before putting the lens on the market and made the decision to partially refund the purchase price in return for absolution of all responsibility for the lens.

The same thing happened to me when I bought my CZJ 180/2.8 P6 lens from eBay; I bought the lens for what I thought was a great price, paid for it and waited for the lens to arrive. When it did arrive, cosmetically it was in mint condition but the diaphragm was stuck wide open. I contacted the seller and explained the situation (emailed some pictures of the lens not being able to close down), I also told him what it would cost to fix the lens and he agreed to refund me the cost of the repair.

In your case, the seller was being stupid. That was an outright fraud and PayPal probably reminded him of that, resulting in you getting what you asked for (minus a penny). Whether by coming to an agreement, as was the case for the OP and myself or getting a third party involved to resolve a dispute, I believe that by and large those who are in the right will prevail in the end, otherwise it would be impossible to do business on eBay.

excanonfd · 12-08-2011, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by vanyagor

I did not have much luck with ebay/paypal buyers protection. If the item cost is not much higher than shipping, that "protection" is useless. Paypal will force you to ship the item back at your own expense basically and you will get the refund for the cost without the shipping. Which means you end up paying the sipping twice for nothing. (If I remember correctly the way it works)

Sorry to hear that your experience on eBay was less than favourable, but I always consider the shipping cost in the equation. I won't buy from those eBay sellers that ask for ridiculous amount of money for shipping. This may be too blatant an example but those East European eBay sellers auctioning Soviet lenses with shipping charge of $70.00 or more, but the thing is I see people actually bidding on them... I wonder if people who win these auctions actually receive a working lens, or do they have to settle for a refund that's a small fraction of the shipping charge.

vanyagor · 12-08-2011, 03:11 AM

Originally posted by excanonfd

Sorry to hear that your experience on eBay was less than favourable, but I always consider the shipping cost in the equation. I won't buy from those eBay sellers that ask for ridiculous amount of money for shipping.

That's not the issue. The shipping cost was reasonable. In many cases shipping can be $20, $30 or even more. I've sold a few items myself and I remember once I had to ship a camera to Singapore if I remember correctly and shipping was ~$35. Imagine you use the ebay/paypal protection in that case - you still lose $70! That's a lot.

12-07-2011, 08:49 PM	#21
StevePrime Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Upper Arlington, OH Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 82 Original Poster	The Zeiss is back from the shop, and everything seems much better. My lens guy said that someone had taken the lens apart too far and didn't reassemble the helicoid correctly. The seller agreed to pay half of the repair, as I asked. My feeling is that he picked up the lens, then clicked off a few shots with his Praktica to make sure it "worked"... I don't think he knew there was a problem. Here's the first test shot, wide-open, tripod @ 7 or 8 feet. ISO1600 (no NR-- gosh I love the k-x). Made the same shot with my Super-Tak 50/1.4 and 55/1.8, neither of them are this sharp even stepped down to f2. Last edited by StevePrime; 12-07-2011 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Add more metadata

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11-30-2011, 11:49 PM	#16
MegaPower Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hong Kong / Irvine, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 636	Originally posted by Philoslothical It can go either way, as I said it's at Ebay's discretion. The point of this policy is to handle problem sellers who aren't cooperative about partial or full refunds where they should be, and sellers that purposely deceive people about condition or authenticity. This is what exactly I got in my experience. Seller was not co-operative with refunds and made up the "bad condition" of the returned item.

12-01-2011, 12:38 AM	#17
excanonfd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 1,421	Originally posted by Philoslothical It verges on punishment for sellers that mislead, don't declare/admit defects, and refuse to work with sellers to resolve it, and it's entirely at Ebay's discretion. If you're a seller, it's scary, if you're a buyer, it makes good sense. It's just as much stealing to sell a broken item as working, or a fake item as genuine, to my mind. The seller is either going to come to an agreement with the buyer on the amount of the partial refund, or he will ask for the lens to be shipped back for refund and the OP has already indicated that he wants to keep the lens. Punish the seller for misrepresentation - the seller might not know much about camera equipments (a lot of buyers deliberately look for scant or poor descriptions, or misspelled brand names in the hope of obtaining bargains) - no thanks, I like it the way it is.

12-01-2011, 12:49 AM	#18
Philoslothical Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 1,889	I'm not here to debate the rightness or wrongness of Ebay's Buyer Protection policy - it's clearly not perfect. I was just trying to let OP know that if the seller is difficult, he may have recourse. I can see how the policy can be abused, but from what bits and pieces I've heard, Ebay is pretty sharp on punishing scamming buyers as well, at least some of the time. I'll put it this way. You buy a lens, description says the usual "clean optics, minimal dust, etc etc" and you receive it full of fungus. Do you think you should be out the shipping to send it back? How about the initial shipping? A lot of sellers will try to get out of both. This kind of policy helps to compensate for these instances, as well as the sellers that take the "tough luck, you should have asked if it had fungus specifically" types.

12-01-2011, 02:44 AM	#19
excanonfd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 1,421	Have you ever seen such an extreme case? I doubt it, unless the seller's intent was to scam the buyer from the beginning, in which case it becomes the seller's first and last attempt at fraud. I have bought quite a lot of photographic gear through eBay and I have on occasion received an item that was not as it was described. In all cases, the sellers were courteous and willing to come to an agreement, either a partial refund or return the item for a full refund. I opted for a partial refund in all cases, and none of the sellers ever quibbled about the amount I proposed as a partial refund. I also think that my experience with eBay so far, has been the norm and not the exception.

12-01-2011, 04:46 AM	#20
vanyagor Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 177	I did not have much luck with ebay/paypal buyers protection. If the item cost is not much higher than shipping, that "protection" is useless. Paypal will force you to ship the item back at your own expense basically and you will get the refund for the cost without the shipping. Which means you end up paying the sipping twice for nothing. (If I remember correctly the way it works)

12-07-2011, 09:32 PM	#22
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by excanonfd Have you ever seen such an extreme case? I doubt it, unless the seller's intent was to scam the buyer from the beginning, in which case it becomes the seller's first and last attempt at fraud. I have bought quite a lot of photographic gear through eBay and I have on occasion received an item that was not as it was described. In all cases, the sellers were courteous and willing to come to an agreement, either a partial refund or return the item for a full refund. I opted for a partial refund in all cases, and none of the sellers ever quibbled about the amount I proposed as a partial refund. I also think that my experience with eBay so far, has been the norm and not the exception. Not with a lens but I also collect watches. I bought a very high end watch via eBay from a seller with a VERY strong reputation on several high end watch sites. He put up a bunch of pictures, the description was solid, and the price was good but not excellent. It arrived with huge scratches on one side of the watch - the side that in retrospect it was clear was NOT in any of the photos I approached him and asked for a partial refund to pay for the rehab that the watch needed. He basically said F-U to me. I did all this through eBays communication center - VERY IMPORTANT. I then said, please think about it because I do not want to involve PayPal. He again told me I was ...crazy. I then put it to them at PayPal, with photos of the scratches, and about 3 minutes after I posted it all to PayPal he refunded all but 1 cent of what I asked for. Do I think he did all that intentionally? You bet your...I do. Oh, and glad that the OP got his lens fixed and what he asked for from the seller.

12-07-2011, 11:51 PM	#23
freerider Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 299	I would suggest communicating with the seller exclusively through ebay's messaging system so that ebay will have a complete record. You could also inform eBay that there may be a dispute to make clear that the lens was defective upon receipt and not the result of anything you did. This happened to me once and eBay noted the problem with the item and told me that they would monitor the situation. Best of luck.

12-08-2011, 12:27 AM	#24
HawaiianOnline Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hawaii Posts: 613	Originally posted by StevePrime The Zeiss is back from the shop, and everything seems much better. My lens guy said that someone had taken the lens apart too far and didn't reassemble the helicoid correctly. The seller agreed to pay half of the repair, as I asked. My feeling is that he picked up the lens, then clicked off a few shots with his Praktica to make sure it "worked"... I don't think he knew there was a problem. Here's the first test shot, wide-open, tripod @ 7 or 8 feet. ISO1600 (no NR-- gosh I love the k-x). Made the same shot with my Super-Tak 50/1.4 and 55/1.8, neither of them are this sharp even stepped down to f2. That looks nice and sharp!

12-08-2011, 12:57 AM	#25
excanonfd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 1,421	Originally posted by Docrwm Not with a lens but I also collect watches. I bought a very high end watch via eBay from a seller with a VERY strong reputation on several high end watch sites. He put up a bunch of pictures, the description was solid, and the price was good but not excellent. It arrived with huge scratches on one side of the watch - the side that in retrospect it was clear was NOT in any of the photos I approached him and asked for a partial refund to pay for the rehab that the watch needed. He basically said F-U to me. I did all this through eBays communication center - VERY IMPORTANT. I then said, please think about it because I do not want to involve PayPal. He again told me I was ...crazy. I then put it to them at PayPal, with photos of the scratches, and about 3 minutes after I posted it all to PayPal he refunded all but 1 cent of what I asked for. Do I think he did all that intentionally? You bet your...I do. Oh, and glad that the OP got his lens fixed and what he asked for from the seller. OP was able to come to an agreement which was satisfactory to both parties - which is what usually happens - and you got what you asked for by going through the proper channels of appeal. In the OP's case, the seller recognized that he did not check the lens over thoroughly before putting the lens on the market and made the decision to partially refund the purchase price in return for absolution of all responsibility for the lens. The same thing happened to me when I bought my CZJ 180/2.8 P6 lens from eBay; I bought the lens for what I thought was a great price, paid for it and waited for the lens to arrive. When it did arrive, cosmetically it was in mint condition but the diaphragm was stuck wide open. I contacted the seller and explained the situation (emailed some pictures of the lens not being able to close down), I also told him what it would cost to fix the lens and he agreed to refund me the cost of the repair. In your case, the seller was being stupid. That was an outright fraud and PayPal probably reminded him of that, resulting in you getting what you asked for (minus a penny). Whether by coming to an agreement, as was the case for the OP and myself or getting a third party involved to resolve a dispute, I believe that by and large those who are in the right will prevail in the end, otherwise it would be impossible to do business on eBay.

12-08-2011, 01:12 AM	#26
excanonfd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 1,421	Originally posted by vanyagor I did not have much luck with ebay/paypal buyers protection. If the item cost is not much higher than shipping, that "protection" is useless. Paypal will force you to ship the item back at your own expense basically and you will get the refund for the cost without the shipping. Which means you end up paying the sipping twice for nothing. (If I remember correctly the way it works) Sorry to hear that your experience on eBay was less than favourable, but I always consider the shipping cost in the equation. I won't buy from those eBay sellers that ask for ridiculous amount of money for shipping. This may be too blatant an example but those East European eBay sellers auctioning Soviet lenses with shipping charge of $70.00 or more, but the thing is I see people actually bidding on them... I wonder if people who win these auctions actually receive a working lens, or do they have to settle for a refund that's a small fraction of the shipping charge.

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12-08-2011, 03:11 AM	#27
vanyagor Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 177	Originally posted by excanonfd Sorry to hear that your experience on eBay was less than favourable, but I always consider the shipping cost in the equation. I won't buy from those eBay sellers that ask for ridiculous amount of money for shipping. That's not the issue. The shipping cost was reasonable. In many cases shipping can be $20, $30 or even more. I've sold a few items myself and I remember once I had to ship a camera to Singapore if I remember correctly and shipping was ~$35. Imagine you use the ebay/paypal protection in that case - you still lose $70! That's a lot.