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12-23-2007, 05:09 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raybo Quote
Now i'm confussed rvannatta,

With practice will an older lens be sufficent, or should I just forget my "cheap" route and get a newer macro?

I do want my images to be true..........HELP!

Ray
Hi Ray, personally I have no problem at all with M or K lenses. There is one extra button press to make, that's it. It's not a big deal at all. Many of the photogs here have K, M and even M42 (screwmount) lenses that they like and use frequently. And they are significantly cheaper. As far as the older macros go, I don't think that is a big deal either. To be truthful, with a well lit subject shot at ISO 100 or 200 you can crop and zoom to get exactly the shot you want. There is nothing at all wrong with the lenses you were looking at. With the money you save on the older lens, you can invest in a good light box (or if you are mechanically inclined build one yourself)

NaCl(sometimes you can get too much information)H2O

12-23-2007, 06:01 AM   #17
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Ray

just to clear up any possible confusion,

I stated that the 100 mm macro went to 1/2 life size without extenstion tubes and full lifesize with extension tubes. Others have called this a weakness, BUT consider this.

An ASP-C sensor is 16 mm by 24 mm

a 1 cent coin is 19mm in diameter, 5 cent coins are 21 mm in diameter, 10 cent coins are 18 mm in diameter, and 25 cent coins are 24 mm in diameter, at 1:1 even a dime won't fit on the sensor and everything else is grossly beyond the sensor frame

you don't need 1:1 and extension tubes can get you there and beyond, at relitively low cost if and when you need them.

Also, lack of autofocus, especially with macro is not an issue because usually you want to pick the focus point yourself (going beyond coins where the entire thing is flat.

It is true a 50mm usually is easier to get to 1:1 because the estension for focus is less BUT you will give up a lot of working distance to get it. That also causes the lens and camera to block the lighting in some cases.
12-23-2007, 09:05 AM   #18
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I think a set of extention tubes are in my future.

Thanks for all the advice!

Ray
12-23-2007, 09:12 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Ray

just to clear up any possible confusion,

I stated that the 100 mm macro went to 1/2 life size without extenstion tubes and full lifesize with extension tubes. Others have called this a weakness, BUT consider this.

An ASP-C sensor is 16 mm by 24 mm

a 1 cent coin is 19mm in diameter, 5 cent coins are 21 mm in diameter, 10 cent coins are 18 mm in diameter, and 25 cent coins are 24 mm in diameter, at 1:1 even a dime won't fit on the sensor and everything else is grossly beyond the sensor frame

you don't need 1:1 and extension tubes can get you there and beyond, at relitively low cost if and when you need them.

Also, lack of autofocus, especially with macro is not an issue because usually you want to pick the focus point yourself (going beyond coins where the entire thing is flat.

It is true a 50mm usually is easier to get to 1:1 because the estension for focus is less BUT you will give up a lot of working distance to get it. That also causes the lens and camera to block the lighting in some cases.
Lowell,
I would like some working distance between the lens and coin......at least 3 or 4 inches or so.
Would this limit my choices? I think I will still get a set of tubes, they seem pretty economical and i'll look for a macro 100.

Thanks again,
Ray

12-23-2007, 10:39 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raybo Quote
Lowell,
I would like some working distance between the lens and coin......at least 3 or 4 inches or so.
Would this limit my choices? I think I will still get a set of tubes, they seem pretty economical and i'll look for a macro 100.

Thanks again,
Ray
Ray

with the 100 mm macro you have about 12 inches at 1:2 and 8 inches at 1:1 (using extension tubes)

somewhere on the net there are formulas that give you this. I don't have a link right now byt perhaps someone else does.
12-23-2007, 10:52 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by NaClH2O Quote
Hi Ray, personally I have no problem at all with M or K lenses. There is one extra button press to make, that's it. It's not a big deal at all. Many of the photogs here have K, M and even M42 (screwmount) lenses that they like and use frequently. And they are significantly cheaper. As far as the older macros go, I don't think that is a big deal either. To be truthful, with a well lit subject shot at ISO 100 or 200 you can crop and zoom to get exactly the shot you want. There is nothing at all wrong with the lenses you were looking at. With the money you save on the older lens, you can invest in a good light box (or if you are mechanically inclined build one yourself)

NaCl(sometimes you can get too much information)H2O
I am one of those who have the older lenses - no M42, but three M series and an A series. I am very, very happy with my M 100/4. It is sharp as a tack. It allows me to use the k10d in snap-in-focus mode, which works really well for insects such as butterflies.

I was very disappointed to find that my new 50-135 does not do snap-in-focus when I leave the camera switch in AF-S and set the lens to MF.

If you are not familiar with snap-in-focus, here is how it works. Put a manual focus lens on the Pentax AF camera. Set the camera to AF-S. Now the shutter will not release until the camera detects focus confirmation. Since the only way for the focus to be attained is with either camera or subject movement, you can pre focus on the magnification you want for your bug, and move the camera until it goes off, or the bug moves into where you have the camera focused. Magic! Thanks Mr. Pentax!
12-23-2007, 12:03 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
I did set it on my monitor... I just wanted to do a quick test...

Is that a no no?
Bad photographer! Bad photographer! Now go stand in the corner and no super for you tonight!


I like the comparison. it shows what a macro lens can do compared to tubes.
12-23-2007, 02:41 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raybo Quote
Now i'm confussed rvannatta,

With practice will an older lens be sufficent, or should I just forget my "cheap" route and get a newer macro?

I do want my images to be true..........HELP!

Ray
optically the older lenses are fine. The thing to remember about the M lenses is that they
are not 'a' lenses and lack the ability to communicate with the camera body. this can interfere with some of the automation features----if you read up on the widely discussed and cussed "crippled Kaf2 mount you can learn of the issue. It is not an optical issue.

If you buy a screw mount you will also have to find an adapter. If you buy an older
lens that assumes you will use extension tubes you will have to buy extension tubes
and they will cost.

If you buy a $350 older lens and then have to pay $150 bucks for a set of tubes, might as well spring the the $500 and get it over with with a current lens.

IT's not an optical issue, it is convenience and cost and make sure you count all the pieces.

If you can get a tube set for $25. that is another thing.

12-23-2007, 03:28 PM   #24
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rvannatta,

I have no problems with manual settings, in fact I really kind of like the challenge.
I'm going to try and get away with less than $200 for a lens and tubes, i'll let you know the outcome and what equiptment I get.

Thanks to everyone for all the help.

Ray
12-23-2007, 07:09 PM   #25
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Hey Ray,

Just to give you an idea on cost. If you do decide to go the old lens and ext tube route. I picked up the S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 that I used in the shot above for 30 dollars. The old M42 ext tube set was 15 bucks in a leather case. And the pentax m42-K adaptor was 25. All on ebait...
If you want you could also get a couple of different length lenses.

Having done the tests I think you could choose any of the options. I will say that the Tamron DI 90mm macro has a 90 dollar rebate on it right now... It is a sharp well reviewed lens. Doubles as a nice portrait length also.
If I had the money I would look at it and the sigma 105 macro and Pentax DA 100 macro...

good luck in whatever you decide...
gus
12-23-2007, 07:11 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
optically the older lenses are fine. The thing to remember about the M lenses is that they
are not 'a' lenses and lack the ability to communicate with the camera body. this can interfere with some of the automation features----if you read up on the widely discussed and cussed "crippled Kaf2 mount you can learn of the issue. It is not an optical issue.

<snip>
What you've said is true but for most macro photography, manual focus is much better anyway as the AF sensor covers too large an area. You have no control over what the camera will choose to focus on. And as far as manual metering is concerned, one extra button push is not terribly inconvenient. Besides, I can get three K or M lenses for the same price I'd pay for one FA lens.

NaCl(and with at least as good IQ)H2O
12-23-2007, 07:47 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Igilligan Quote
Hey Ray,

Just to give you an idea on cost. If you do decide to go the old lens and ext tube route. I picked up the S-M-C Tak 50 1.4 that I used in the shot above for 30 dollars. The old M42 ext tube set was 15 bucks in a leather case. And the pentax m42-K adaptor was 25. All on ebait...
If you want you could also get a couple of different length lenses.

Having done the tests I think you could choose any of the options. I will say that the Tamron DI 90mm macro has a 90 dollar rebate on it right now... It is a sharp well reviewed lens. Doubles as a nice portrait length also.
If I had the money I would look at it and the sigma 105 macro and Pentax DA 100 macro...

good luck in whatever you decide...
gus
Igillgan,

I don't know what's going on (maybe it's because of the Pentax rebate and a heck of alot of cameras were sold for Xmas), but the prices for the older Pentax lenses on the bay have gotten out of control.
I'm currently bidding on a 100mm f4 macro and hope my bid holds, I also have my eye on a set of original Pentax tubes.
Has anyone else noticed how the prices for older lenses have gone haywire?

Thanks again,
Ray
12-23-2007, 08:36 PM   #28
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Raybo... oooh ya, a lot of new members to the "more money then brains" club.
12-23-2007, 10:36 PM   #29
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Pentax-M 100mm F4 SMC Macro Lens, Caps ex+/ex++ $265.00 Cdn

PENTAX
12-23-2007, 11:32 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Canada_Rockies Quote
Pentax-M 100mm F4 SMC Macro Lens, Caps ex+/ex++ $265.00 Cdn

PENTAX
Even though the U.S. dollar is in the toilet i'm hoping to get my lens for much less.

Thanks for the link CR, I feel for our neighbors to the north and the EU......for some reason you always get rapped on prices (I forgot to mention "treasure island")

Ray
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