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02-09-2012, 04:18 AM   #1
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DA 18-55mm on 35mm Body????

I'm hoping to use my DA 18-55 on a ME Super.
Appreciate there will be issues with image circle and aperture control but if it's physically possible will I have any greater field of view than with a 28mm?

If this is a stupid idea please tell me

02-09-2012, 04:55 AM   #2
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Think I might have answered my own question

RiceHigh has actually done some testing on this, I might be able to push it to 24mm if I don't mind some 'artistic' vignetting.

http://http://ricehigh.blogspot.com/2008/10/da-18-55-on-full-frame.html

Last edited by Graham V; 02-09-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: corrected link
02-09-2012, 05:03 AM   #3
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Well you will certainly get a wider FOV, but a reduced usable area due to the image circle issues, and with no aperture control the lens will be stopped down to the highest aterture value of the lens which would mean you would suffer from diffraction issues on a lens that is not very sharp to begin with. This would also mean that you will most likely need to use a tripod and/or faster film because the stopped down lens will mean longer exposures.
I'm not gonna say it's a stupid idea, but all in all I would really not recommend it if image quality is a concern. I would rather recomend you search the marketplace, ebay, craigslist or other for an old wide prime, there are several 20mm primes that can be had for very little money and will give you a lot better results.
02-09-2012, 05:24 AM   #4
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the biggest problem with the combo of ME super and DA lenses, is that there is no aperture ring, and the ME super have not KA mount.

So it will stop down the lens to the maximum (so f22 to f44 i guess).

However, you can use the DA lenses with a body that have KA mount (like superProgram (the best KA body i think), or some MZ body.)

Here is what you get with the SuperProgram / SuperA and DA-L 18-55 @18mm f8 :


The 18-55 is very usable without problem from 24mm to 55mm. But it's quite slow. From 18 to 24 you will get black border in the picture.

02-09-2012, 05:37 AM   #5
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Thanks both, very useful info.
I'm keeping my eye out for a Vivitar 19mm (budget constraints)

Am I correct in thinking I can select aperture on dslr, use DOF preview and retain aperture when put on film body?
02-09-2012, 05:54 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Graham V Quote
Thanks both, very useful info.
I'm keeping my eye out for a Vivitar 19mm (budget constraints)

Am I correct in thinking I can select aperture on dslr, use DOF preview and retain aperture when put on film body?
Vivitar made several versions of the 19mm, if it is the K mount version with the A setting on the ring, yes, you can set the aperture thorugh the camera on your DSLR and then just switch from A to the desired aperture when on the Super ME, DOF preview will be available on both.
Please be aware that there is a chance that the lens may have the Ricoh pin which makes the lens stick on the DSLR lens mount, make sure it does NOT have this pin before mounting it to your DLSR.

Check this thread out if you want to know more about this issue.
02-09-2012, 06:09 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Graham V Quote
Thanks both, very useful info.
I'm keeping my eye out for a Vivitar 19mm (budget constraints)

Am I correct in thinking I can select aperture on dslr, use DOF preview and retain aperture when put on film body?
Yes and no!

1. Old m42 lenses can be used in step-down mode, and there are some K lenses that work that way too. That means that there is no pin controlling the apperture blades, so that the controll is fully manual. You would tipically focus on a subject first, close the apperture to the desired value, do the metering and snap the picture.

2. Old K (K and M) lenses have the apperture ring and the lever controlling the blades. Those lenses have another pin which mecanically tells the body about the maximum opening and the setting on the apperture ring. New bodies (read all pentax DSLR) have no such coupling so there is no way the body can say what the position apperture is in. The body does the metereing with wide-open blades and the blades are closed in the instant the picture is taken. However it is possible to do the metering in M (manual) mode thus effectively setting the apperture in desired position.

3. A, F and FA lenses have "A" setting (automatic) setting thus allowing the body to set the apperture. Effectively it is same as having the apperture closed completely and then the rod opening the apperture is set to apropriate position. The camera know electronically the maxium and minimum available apperture.

4. FAJ and DA lenses do not have any setting at all, so they are effectively stuch in "A" setting. In such cases the old bodies can not tell the apperture capabilities of the lens and can not use the apperture at all.

You can find some more information about the K mount here:
Welcome to Bojidar Dimitrov's Pentax K-Mount Page

Now that said, there are still some "workarounds"

You can fix the apperture rod (by adding a piece of plastic or something like that) to wide open position, or actually any other position you like. However if you want to change the setting you still have to remove the lens, adjust the "stuck" position of the rod and put the lens back. Although it may be usefull for studio work it is just way too much job for nothing. Another option is to get a newer film body where you can adjust the apperture on the body.

There are still some filme bodies out there that you can get fairly cheap (MZ-6 / MZ-L MZ-7 or *ist). So basically with these bodies you would have the settings similar to those you have on a DSLR and you will still be shooting film in FF. Moreover you can use all features of your DA lenses as well (appart from possible heavy vigneting at the edges).
02-09-2012, 07:19 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
Here is what you get with the SuperProgram / SuperA and DA-L 18-55 @18mm f8

aurele, is your picture cropped at all?
If not, it shows a very clear off-center vignetting,
which suggests that FF photographs like this
would be a useful way to check a lens for certain defects.

02-09-2012, 07:27 AM   #9
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As noted above, your ME Super is not compatible with lenses that lack an aperture ring. Unless, of course, you are willing to shoot at minimum aperture for the lens. There is also the issue of coverage at the sensor. Most of the DA series lenses, particularly at the wide end, vignette heavily when used with the 35mm film format. If you need an ultra-wide solution for your ME Super, your best bet is a lens that was made for 35mm film and has an aperture ring. There are prime offerings below 24mm in K-mount from Vivitar, Tamron, Pentax, and others that will meet your needs, but be prepared to bite the bullet, price-wise. Since introduction of the Pentax APS-C digital cameras, these lenses have become relatively scarce and highly sought after as general wide-angle solutions for those cameras.

Steve
02-09-2012, 08:07 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
aurele, is your picture cropped at all?
If not, it shows a very clear off-center vignetting,
which suggests that FF photographs like this
would be a useful way to check a lens for certain defects.
the picture is a simple scan of the film, so the original picture is what you see.

The lens have no defect : all 18-55 DA-AL act like this (i've tried 3 of them).
The reason is quite simple : the coverage of the 18-55 is slightly bigger than APS-C, and thus, when mounting the lens on SLR you can see what is the real coverage. You see it in the VF anyway.
So : no stress, it's totally normal.
02-09-2012, 10:48 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
The lens have no defect
The presence of vignetting is not of concern, it is to be expected.

What drew my attention is the fact that the covered circle
is not central on the 36x24mm frame,
but is displaced to the right by a millimeter or two.
That appears to indicate some decentering of the DAL lens.

My point is that full-frame photographs of this type
might be used to diagnose such problems with APS-C lenses.
02-09-2012, 11:39 AM   #12
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as i said, i found the vignetting always off centered, with all DA-AL 18-55 i found, even new ones tried in the shop.

it drew my attention too at first, but it seems normal (because i can't imagine 4 lenses, taken randomly in different places, to have the same things because they are damaged.)
02-09-2012, 11:50 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by aurele Quote
as i said, i found the vignetting always off centered, with all DA-AL 18-55 i found, even new ones tried in the shop.

it drew my attention too at first, but it seems normal (because i can't imagine 4 lenses, taken randomly in different places, to have the same things because they are damaged.)
Was the displacement always in the same direction (a couple of mm to the right)?
If so, then it may be an issue of the framing in your film camera,
or a slight misalignment of its mount.
02-09-2012, 12:53 PM   #14
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Sigma DG EX 17-35 is a better bet. It has everything your ME Super needs (including full frame coverage), and I snagged my on Fleabay years ago for under $200. One stop faster than the 18-55 as well.

Loads of fun on film.

02-09-2012, 02:18 PM   #15
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If the IQ of the first version of the Pentax 18-55 is good enough, you could also consider the Cosina 3.5-4.5/19-35, which has about the same performance. It is AF, KAF mount (it has an aperture ring with "A" setting). And it is a FF lens.
I bought it a year ago at a sell out new for €33, and on german eBay I saw since beginning of the year 2 of them which went for €45~60 used. You may still be able to buy it somewhere new (I think the lowest price in Internet was about €99, 3 years ago > €200). It feels as it looks - all plastic. There is (was?) a silver and a black version (silver looking cheaper), and the used black ones seem always to get higher prices.
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