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01-10-2008, 09:18 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
dbradley: interesting indeed. So does that mean we have to categorize good bokeh lenses into a "good at plant life bokeh" vs. "good at non plant life bokeh"? :-)
The latter certainly seems to be what carpents was after...
Greens and muted colors generally render nicely with most of my Pentax lenses, as long as there isn't too much contrast in the scene. Yup, it is these contrast-y settings that are difficult and the subject here.

01-10-2008, 04:15 PM   #47
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Ok, I have a suggestion. Bear in mind that I have had a glass of wine, but some of my most creative ideas happen this way.

How about instead of Boke or Bokeh, lets use OOFA... Out Of Focus Area. Eh??
01-10-2008, 04:17 PM   #48
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So the quality of OOFA is BOKE. Gimme some of that wine
01-10-2008, 04:21 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
So the quality of OOFA is BOKE. Gimme some of that wine
Ok, how about QOOOFA for Quality Of Out Of Focus Area???


(Yes! I am having too much fun!)

01-10-2008, 04:27 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Abbazz Quote
Among the "sharp" lenses of normal focal length, the smoothest I have found is the old Takumar 58/2.4 lens. It's a 5 element/3 group lens of Heliar formula. It is rather soft at 2.4 but sharpens up nicely at f/4 while delivering very smooth bokeh. Here are some pictures taken with this lens at f/4 (no sharpening applied):



Cheers!

Abbazz
Hi Abbazz!

This is an intriguing result - very impressive, especially if you look at how some of the other pictures I've posted in this thread compare. Unfortunately the Takumar 58/2.4 is a rare lens.
01-10-2008, 04:29 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomInJax Quote
Ok, I have a suggestion. Bear in mind that I have had a glass of wine, but some of my most creative ideas happen this way.

How about instead of Boke or Bokeh, lets use OOFA... Out Of Focus Area. Eh??

Ummm...no.

I do sometimes refer to the 'out-of-focus area' instead of bokeh. There can be less to explain.
01-10-2008, 05:10 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
Ummm...no.

I do sometimes refer to the 'out-of-focus area' instead of bokeh. There can be less to explain.
Agreed in also tends to cause less debates on what bokeh actually is, if you just call it OOF area.. ;-)
01-10-2008, 06:44 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote
This is an intriguing result - very impressive, especially if you look at how some of the other pictures I've posted in this thread compare. Unfortunately the Takumar 58/2.4 is a rare lens.
Yes Sean, I never used this lens much, because I tested it at maximum aperture when I received it and I found it quite disappointing. In fact, it is a very nice lens from f/4 with a nice mellow rendering.

Unfortunately, as you state it, it is a rare lens. Maybe I should test for bokeh my SMC-Takumar 100/4 Macro, which shares the same Heliar formula and is more widely available.

Cheers!


Last edited by Abbazz; 01-10-2008 at 07:05 PM.
01-10-2008, 08:38 PM   #54
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I like the bokeh of my SMC Pentax A 50mm 1.7.



Also the Super Takumar 55mm 1.8

01-10-2008, 09:25 PM   #55
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Hmmm...

I admit, I like "technically imperfect" bokeh as much, if not more, than the perfect Gaussian stuff. The perfect stuff could've been done in Photoshop...

I keep meaning to do a test on bokeh with all my fifties. I'm lucky enough to own the f1.2 K, the f1.4 K, and f1.7 A, as well as a Rikenon f1.7.

For now, here's a few. Some are in BW, which makes it hard to see the colour rendition. All wide open.



- K f1.2 50, K100D



- K f1.4, K100D



- Rikenon f1.7, KR10M, Fuji Reala

Er. Looks like I don't have one with the f1.7 A. But Jake's is a good example. Anyone wanna give me some feedback on mine, please ?

I love the Tak 55 f1.8 from jake.
01-10-2008, 10:10 PM   #56
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Hi,
I also have the Rikenon 1.7 and have generally been pleased with its out-of-focus rendering. Some examples:






Last edited by stevebrot; 01-10-2008 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Switched from attached images to better remote copies
01-10-2008, 11:30 PM   #57
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Wow. I'm not sure how I missed this thread until recently, but I almost feel like I've had an epiphany.

A lot of this conversation has revolved around "high end" lenses. But having read this whole thing, including Jonas' post, I feel like I've learned most about my "lowest" end lens, the FA-J 75-300. And Probably how to take best advantage of a very inexpensive lens...

It suddenly made sense to me why it seems to me that the FA-J 75-300 "mis-focuses" so frequently.

The OOF dispersion circles in the FA-J 75-300 is much like "example #1" or even more "example #2" of Jonas' blur dispersion examples nabbed from Ken Rockwell's site, though more like #2. The OOF area itself has "sharp edges" between contrast areas. I'm guessing that this causes the AF's contrast meter to decide the scene/subject is "in focus" and thus the high % of shots where AF is confirmed, but is actually short of "correct" focus.

Personally, especially in the greens, I really like the bokeh of the FA-J 75-300. But it definately has an almost "sharp" bokeh in every other color I can think of, especially highlights. You can see what I mean in this "100% crop" of this picture. It's @ 300mm-f/5.8-1/250s-ISO200, wide open and full zoom. The greens bleed through the wings of the plane in the OOF background. This lens artifact has probably been exacerbated by my over-exposure of the background in this shot:



Green's are nice and soft OOF, but everything else is " fuzzy yet edgy" ... Still OOF, but in a "sharp" kind of way.

I think this explains my "love/hate" relationship with this lens. I've loved it with OOF greens, but been dissappointed by OOF highlights and other contrast areas, and it's tendancy to "mis-autofocus" because of it's sharpish rendering of non-green OOF areas, which isn't so much a problem in and of itself, except it fools the AF entirely too consistantly... Unfortunately the manual focus mechanism is < 270 degrees making MF harder than it could be...

Anyhow, I think I've learned a lot here, love to hear feedback...

Thanks!

-Chris
01-11-2008, 01:10 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote


Hi James!

I think we agree (generally) on bokeh. You and I share tastes and I don't see anything wrong with your Pentax list either. The picture remaining above, however, shows that even the ($$$$$$) Canon 50/1.2L would fail Jonas' test. The highlights in the upper-right corner have serious hard edges.
Yeah, That was the idea of posting that shot. Funnily, the canon forum is ignorant of this and love this type of bokeh that is harsh to a degree as well (that shot is not PP at all)

That lens also has a problem of producing sigma like ring bokeh from light reflected off windows or neon lights. Rather ugly. Some so called fashion photographers (not naming them) actually love that sort of bokeh a lot and get proud of them ...

QuoteOriginally posted by carpents Quote

Anyway, you're guess is only half right! But the A50/1.2 doesn't do exactly what I posted above. Look at the following shot - it does indeed have a pleasant background, but you can see hard edges in the background. It does better in the foreground, but this is one of those shots that shows off the Pentax axial CA - green in the background bokeh, purple in the foreground bokeh.


Actually I was thinking the lens could have been Fa* 24!! I actually found the bokeh from this prime quite pleasant! No tests done so far but it is rather a great lens in bokeh department.

Your photograph of A 50/1.2 shot is definietly artistic and beautiful. But the purple and hard edges in the foreground are in deed annoying (not if you had not mentioned it). Maybe that is why Nokton 58mm f1.4 could be the dream lens of bokeh ...

01-11-2008, 06:46 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinckc Quote
You can see what I mean in this "100% crop" of this picture. It's @ 300mm-f/5.8-1/250s-ISO200, wide open and full zoom. The greens bleed through the wings of the plane in the OOF background. This lens artifact has probably been exacerbated by my over-exposure of the background in this shot:

Chris,

That's not really "bokeh," but just plain longitudinal chromatic aberration (axial color). Together with the residual spherical aberration of your lens, it forms a "composite" aberration called spherochromatism, or variation of spherical aberration according to color of light.

Cheers!
01-11-2008, 07:24 AM   #60
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I'll attempt to test this over the weekend, in at least semi controlled circumstance:

I've noted, in swapping lenses between digital and film, that the same lens simply takes to one medium better than the other. In the case of the DA70 and the 43, the 70 prefers digital and the 32 film, for example. These are just my impressions and not the result of any direct comparison in the same conditions.

For me the quality of bokeh often translates to whether or not the photo makes sense - harsh or chaotic bokeh detracts from the picture and makes me feel uneasy and icky. Meanwhile, buttery or neutral bokeh puts me more at ease. That's the basis for my impressions of the two lenses I mention.

I'm thinking, apart from the image size itself, there's the business with digital sensors accepting light in a different manner than film - film accepts light from a wider set of angles. I would think this has something to do with the bokeh behavior (as well as aberrations etc), while having less of an effect on the in-focus areas?
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