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03-28-2012, 07:40 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by paperbag846 Quote
Pentax has not made anything similar since the K 15
that was actually originally designed and released as an m42 Takumar, not a K lens. its just insanely rare, because it was released if I'm not mistaken, just before the k series was introduced.

03-28-2012, 07:50 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by intjonmiller Quote
I'm not just talking about Pentax here. Nobody has a prime wider than 14mm. The difference between the 15 mm ltd and a zoom set to 15 mm is fairly dramatic. The same would apply to a 10 or 12 mm by the same talented designers. And it doesn't have to be faster than f/4.

I'm correcting for distortion in zooms EVERY DAY. I'm quite familiar with what is possible. Particularly for that nasty 12-24 Sigma it just isn't always enough. (I've used it on both Nikon and Canon. Worst ultra wide shots I've ever produced.)


Actually - Nikon did make a 13mm super wide lens - which was technically their most difficult to manufacture, and the most expensive lens in their catalogue (I think after inflation etc.) ever:

Nikon 13mm

That thing has virtually zero curvilinear distortion.... To reproduce that field of view on APS - we would need an ~8mm. Doesn't sigma make an 8-16mm or something these days?
03-28-2012, 07:52 AM   #18
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Most people, including me, use the Sigma 10-20 as a prime. Leave it at 10mm. Set it to infinity. Use it at hyperfocal for landscapes. Works great :-)
03-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #19
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I can only conclude that everyone who thinks that tiling/stitching or just using a zoom is the same as a real, dedicated prime lend has never done this sort of work professionally or in any sort of production environment. Stitching in an architectural setting requires very precise alignment of a proper (and very expensive) panoramic head. And that's before the time consuming post production workflow required for stitching. And while zooms are generally "good enough" I rarely settle for "good enough". My business is based on positioning myself as the best. The distortion in ultra wide angle zooms is almost correctable but I still sometimes have leftover "moustache" distortion along critical architectural lines. I'm doing dozens of images per day. I can't just liquify every image to correct that in Photoshop.

I realize 15 mm is already ultra wide. That's why I put "ULTRA" in caps and specified 10 or 12 mm. Actually if Pentax did it I expect it will be 9 or 11 mm

03-28-2012, 10:04 AM   #20
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Realistically the best architectural solution is still and will likely always be a proper view cam with a full range of motion. I run into a local tog occasionally who does a lot of architectural work. he shoots digital rarely (usually more just for a site survey) and when he is producing for the final he comes back with his 4x5 view cam -he used to do it on8x10 but colour film is no longer in production )
03-28-2012, 10:09 AM   #21
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Spade, I was not familiar with that Nikon. Thanks for sharing! Proves that even that extreme fov is possible with virtually no distortion. So an 11 mm or so on a cropped sensor (f/5.6 would be fine) should be quite doable.
03-28-2012, 10:18 AM   #22
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What's wrong with the Pentax DA 12-24mm f4?
It is sharp even wide open, distortion is well controlled, there is some CA but overall it is excellent for architectural shooting. Imo the focal range is better than the Sigma 10-20mm at the long end because 24mm is a lot more versatile, especially for environmental portraits and group shots of people. Build quality is good.
03-28-2012, 10:18 AM   #23
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I should add that for full on professional architectural work carrying a view camera with even a MF back isn't a hardship since you need to carry more weight in proper lighting than the camera anyway. It's a rare building that won't require some lighting even with the high iso of dslrs
Certainly it would be a damn site easier if their was a proper Tilt Shift available to shoot on Pentax, but for that you need to go Canon or Nikon (and FF to really benefit most)
I think most guys not dedicated to the style actually do a lot of PP now since though time consuming PS makes it simpler (and light years cheaper) than the high end alternative.

that Nikon 13 is really cool and Could probably be produced again but would anyone here (or even over at Nikon) be willing to pay $15000 for one?

03-28-2012, 10:38 AM   #24
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Perhaps one could inquire of Pentax why they don't produce a UWA prime, eh? I suspect their polite reply would boil down to, "It ain't worth it". An extreme lens of extreme cost, for a minor system that lacks pro support? Will the bean-counters OK that?

In this modern world, zooms seem to outsell primes. Lensmakers can produce UWA zooms that will fill various niches, and sell them for various platforms. But an ultra-UWA prime for a specialized niche for Pentax APS-C dSLRs would have a VERY small market.

Is it impossible? No, not if Ricoh provides subsidies while building Pentax back into a major player. I expect some synchronicity. I predict that when Pentax has 15-20% market share, we'll see some more exotic glass, including U-UWA's, T&S's, super-macros, etc.

Hold not thy breath.
03-28-2012, 10:57 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Perhaps one could inquire of Pentax why they don't produce a UWA prime, eh? I suspect their polite reply would boil down to, "It ain't worth it". An extreme lens of extreme cost, for a minor system that lacks pro support? Will the bean-counters OK that?

In this modern world, zooms seem to outsell primes. Lensmakers can produce UWA zooms that will fill various niches, and sell them for various platforms. But an ultra-UWA prime for a specialized niche for Pentax APS-C dSLRs would have a VERY small market.

Is it impossible? No, not if Ricoh provides subsidies while building Pentax back into a major player. I expect some synchronicity. I predict that when Pentax has 15-20% market share, we'll see some more exotic glass, including U-UWA's, T&S's, super-macros, etc.

Hold not thy breath.
that's the big thing, it's a long way to 15-20% market share from current levels.Sony isn't there either (and noticeably they also don't produce all that more exotic kit)
03-28-2012, 11:04 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Perhaps one could inquire of Pentax why they don't produce a UWA prime, eh? I suspect their polite reply would boil down to, "It ain't worth it". An extreme lens of extreme cost, for a minor system that lacks pro support? Will the bean-counters OK that?

In this modern world, zooms seem to outsell primes. Lensmakers can produce UWA zooms that will fill various niches, and sell them for various platforms. But an ultra-UWA prime for a specialized niche for Pentax APS-C dSLRs would have a VERY small market.

Is it impossible? No, not if Ricoh provides subsidies while building Pentax back into a major player. I expect some synchronicity. I predict that when Pentax has 15-20% market share, we'll see some more exotic glass, including U-UWA's, T&S's, super-macros, etc.

Hold not thy breath.
I can see the point of selling zooms to multiple platforms, but the companies that sell lenses to multiple platforms could easily come up with an UWA prime and sell to Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax. Now the scary thing is companies like Tamron and Tokina not providing certain goodies to our mount because of our small market share. Even Sigma doesn't offer us everything. Perhaps because of this Ricoh might introduce some interesting stuff or make it more desireable for 3rd party designers to make stuff for the k-mount.
03-28-2012, 11:13 AM   #27
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A prime specialist like Pentax could do very well with this. The limiteds are precisely why I came back after a long stint with Nikon. The impressive primes are HOW to regain market share. Doing me-too stuff won't ever make that happen.

That said I would happily use something from Sigma.
03-28-2012, 11:35 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenafein Quote
I can see the point of selling zooms to multiple platforms, but the companies that sell lenses to multiple platforms could easily come up with an UWA prime and sell to Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax. Now the scary thing is companies like Tamron and Tokina not providing certain goodies to our mount because of our small market share. Even Sigma doesn't offer us everything. Perhaps because of this Ricoh might introduce some interesting stuff or make it more desireable for 3rd party designers to make stuff for the k-mount.
I agree it is something Ricoh needs to work on. However I doubt something as extreme as the nikon example will be a near term project. it's just too wildly expensive to produce and sell. I think they will address things like Tilt Shift before they address a Rectilinear UWA prime that would match the nikon (what an 8-9mm on apsc) APSC's weakness is in the wide end as it sits. If a FF line is produced I can see a 15 rectilinear at some point (that extra 2 mm probably simplifies things by a huge order of magnitude.) Given Nikon has decided it's not worth doing with 10 X the market share and a previous excellent model to work from I'm guessing it's just a lens to dream about though (Every Blog i took a quick browse for guys shooting all mentioned that most work that is quick is done via DSLR and PS, and more exacting is still view camera but now with a Digital back in many cases
03-28-2012, 12:21 PM   #29
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Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting anything nearly as complicated or expensive as that Nikon 13 mm. Just aps-c/DA grade 10 to 12 mm. Consider that the Nikon was designed LONG before the modern method involving computer-based modeling. That alone has dramatically simplified lens design and manufacturing enough to bring the price down considerably. Also consider that Nikon still doesn't offee a full frame zoom that wide. That's how extreme that lens is. I'm just talking about a better solution for the same focal lengths we already have covered with compromising zooms.

Compare the ultra low flare and ghosting of the 15 mm ltd with any other 15 mm option to see what I mean when I say the zooms are compromising.
03-28-2012, 12:32 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by intjonmiller Quote
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting anything nearly as complicated or expensive as that Nikon 13 mm. Just aps-c/DA grade 10 to 12 mm.
Oh, I agree that an 8-10-12mm rectilinear for APS-C should be possible, since zooms that wide exist, and we'd expect that a corresponding prime should cost less to produce. So why hasn't it been done? My guess: Lensmakers just don't see a sufficient market. We can't force them to sell lenses that won't recoup their investment.

But maybe Pentax will surprise us. Maybe we'll see a DA*10/4. Whip out those sacrificial offerings, kids, and perform some rituals to propitiate the deities of applied optics and their bean-counting viziers. When you wish upon a star, etc.
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