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04-18-2012, 09:06 AM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by altopiet Quote
If they have the incentive of making a higher profit, they'll do more to sell it, that's life in retail. Some first time buyers, even if they might have some information from forums like this, still like getting the information/demonstration/advice given by a sales person, and if that person's pay depends on a percentage of sales, what do you think he'll do?
exactly. Salespeople Push what they are given an incentive to push. Higher margins will mean the store management will reward sales of the product. If it is not stocked though no salesperson will push it so that needs addressing
I think Hoya destroyed that by having stupid minimums with no credit terms, that likely is changing as well with this move (and judging by the number of former dealers returning I would guess that change has already begun)
It's a process and takes time. I doubt Ricoh plans for huge share growth overnight. But I'm guessing they have aggressive targets coming down the line.

04-18-2012, 09:06 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ikarus Quote
Here's the thing - if you tie yourself to the fate of B&M stores, all that's going to happen is that you're going down with them. That was the truth in 2008. Fast-forward to 2012 - there are barely any B&M stores left, the ones that are, are struggling, and Pentax pulls a this trick from the ancient past. I'm sorry to have to say it and I hope I'm wrong, but it does look like an act of pure desperation to me.
This is what I'm really not understanding. They are attempting to bolster a dying set of franchises by effectively raising prices to the consumer. They might not have officially raised prices but this is absolutely the perception that every Pentax user has. They have to pay more now. Perhaps there is more going on than meets the eye but I'm not really impressed by one of the first actions clearly initiated by Ricoh.

FWIW I did sit in a B&M store when I bought my K-5 and I did really like being able to open it up and mount a few lenses on it and make sure nothing was horribly wrong with it. At the same time I wanted to buy a lens from them (in Taiwan) but it was 60+% higher than the sale price in the US and I will definitely be getting that lens shipped/carried to Taiwan instead.
04-18-2012, 09:12 AM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by abacus07 Quote
FWIW I did sit in a B&M store when I bought my K-5 and I did really like being able to open it up and mount a few lenses on it and make sure nothing was horribly wrong with it. At the same time I wanted to buy a lens from them (in Taiwan) but it was 60+% higher than the sale price in the US and I will definitely be getting that lens shipped/carried to Taiwan instead.
And this is one of the reasons it had to happen. the disparity was ridiculous, not only did it kill US B&M retail it also is disrupting other countries distribution channels. The ease of cross border shopping has made it imperative for manufacturers to keep a hold on the channel pricing worldwide
You went into a store and took the time of an employee who was paid to help you, the owner stocked the product, and provided the retail space, and the local distributor provides service and supply. Your government likely has some hidden taxes in the price as well. You then took all the incentive for the local people to even be there away buy shopping the grey market (BH Photo I'm sure is not an authorized distributor for Taiwan and they sure didn't send a percentage of the profit there to offset the cost of the locals providing you with service)
04-18-2012, 09:15 AM   #259
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Rebuilding a brand is a series of steps. Ned can't wave a magic wand and transform the USA. Whether Ned and John were forced to do the BigBox by Hoya or they made a bad business decision is irrelevant (and I doubt we'll ever know) it is apparne that the USA distribution strategy is to look much more like Europe within a period of time.

I feel this way ->

Vision = #3 brand competing effectively against Canon and Nikon, beating Sony
Goal = Regain control of brand image and pricing strategy, consistent with Vision
Objective(s) = There are no doubt many objectives, listed in an order, building one on the prior
Tactics = Actions necessary to achieve objectives. This price strategy change is an early tactical maneuver. In time we will understand the reasons for and the outcomes of the tactical actions. Right now we can't, because none of the higher-level aspects of the business plan is visible to us.

So if you are going to be angry (ranging from disappointed to thinking of yourself as a "rape victim") - do what you have to do.

But I don't believe Ricoh intends to destroy Pentax and I don't believe they are business boneheads.

04-18-2012, 09:33 AM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Rebuilding a brand is a series of steps. Ned can't wave a magic wand and transform the USA. Whether Ned and John were forced to do the BigBox by Hoya or they made a bad business decision is irrelevant (and I doubt we'll ever know) it is apparne that the USA distribution strategy is to look much more like Europe within a period of time.

I feel this way ->

Vision = #3 brand competing effectively against Canon and Nikon, beating Sony
Goal = Regain control of brand image and pricing strategy, consistent with Vision
Objective(s) = There are no doubt many objectives, listed in an order, building one on the prior
Tactics = Actions necessary to achieve objectives. This price strategy change is an early tactical maneuver. In time we will understand the reasons for and the outcomes of the tactical actions. Right now we can't, because none of the higher-level aspects of the business plan is visible to us.

So if you are going to be angry (ranging from disappointed to thinking of yourself as a "rape victim") - do what you have to do.

But I don't believe Ricoh intends to destroy Pentax and I don't believe they are business boneheads.
Pretty much a well reasoned view. Honestly I think Pentax knows they will lose some users over this. In the greater scheme of things they will be looking at the whole of the market and how to gain more than a niche
We see, as you said, only a small part of the business plan and can at best postulate on the total plan. The one thing most people fail to see is this is not about them it's about taking control and growing the brand beyond it's current narrow focus
04-18-2012, 09:35 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Rebuilding a brand is a series of steps. Ned can't wave a magic wand and transform the USA. Whether Ned and John were forced to do the BigBox by Hoya or they made a bad business decision is irrelevant (and I doubt we'll ever know) it is apparne that the USA distribution strategy is to look much more like Europe within a period of time.

I feel this way ->

Vision = #3 brand competing effectively against Canon and Nikon, beating Sony
Goal = Regain control of brand image and pricing strategy, consistent with Vision
Objective(s) = There are no doubt many objectives, listed in an order, building one on the prior
Tactics = Actions necessary to achieve objectives. This price strategy change is an early tactical maneuver. In time we will understand the reasons for and the outcomes of the tactical actions. Right now we can't, because none of the higher-level aspects of the business plan is visible to us.

So if you are going to be angry (ranging from disappointed to thinking of yourself as a "rape victim") - do what you have to do.

But I don't believe Ricoh intends to destroy Pentax and I don't believe they are business boneheads.
Not sure you're reading this but here goes anyway.

"Be of good cheer, Pentaxians. Ricoh has a plan and you will be happy!"

and the next part is left off - whether you like it or not!

You DO NOT build a business by screwing your current customers. Oh, it may work in the short term but it will come back to bite you. Why? Because people will learn, stupid as many are, that they cannot trust the company - they are not reliable - and so their promises about CS, Warranty, etc. will be open to questions as well.

Perhaps Ricoh and Ned are geniuses. The data and history with Pentax USA seems to argue overwhelmingly against that but I suppose it is possible, just like a catastrophic meteor strike is possible on any given day.

B&M is a dying sales channel and Pentax USA wants to embrace it whole-heartedly. Fine. I'm sure that Pentax can convince Amazon that their business model sucks and is stupid and should be changed.
04-18-2012, 09:46 AM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Pretty much a well reasoned view. Honestly I think Pentax knows they will lose some users over this. In the greater scheme of things they will be looking at the whole of the market and how to gain more than a niche
We see, as you said, only a small part of the business plan and can at best postulate on the total plan. The one thing most people fail to see is this is not about them it's about taking control and growing the brand beyond it's current narrow focus
They really need to be cautious about destroying their specialty niche. Canon was in a different position and the market was as well when they dumped the FD and those customers. Plus, Minolta got hammered in lawsuits that eventually took them out of the game as a major player. Pentax isn't in either position. Ricoh already showed once they couldn't run an slr camera company.
04-18-2012, 09:50 AM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
exactly. Salespeople Push what they are given an incentive to push. Higher margins will mean the store management will reward sales of the product. If it is not stocked though no salesperson will push it so that needs addressing
I think Hoya destroyed that by having stupid minimums with no credit terms, that likely is changing as well with this move (and judging by the number of former dealers returning I would guess that change has already begun)
It's a process and takes time. I doubt Ricoh plans for huge share growth overnight. But I'm guessing they have aggressive targets coming down the line.
B&M including chains have been imploding for some time now. I really don't see how Ricoh is going to be able to save the B&M and rebuild the sales network and on top of all that be competitive. Just look at the Ritz/Wolf implosion from the bankruptcy. The 1 local independent B&M has changed its model away from being a camera dealer. The closest shop may be Jacksonville or Panama City both of which are 3 hours 1-way or maybe Gainesville.

04-18-2012, 10:16 AM   #264
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I ordered my DA* 50-135 on March 31st to avoid the jump - I paid B&H $849 and it is now $1,599. What a great way for them to help me cure my LBA - I won't be getting any more lenses for a while now, but luckily I have the minimum that I need.

If the price structure stays the way it is, it will work as intended for me though - I will most likely get my next lens from a local B&M. My 50-135 arrived damaged and I am waiting for a replacement right now. I predict that even if this does not hurt Pentax sales in the long run, it will mean a lot fewer people buying online. Amazon currently is selling the 50-135 for $1,149.99 which is better than B&H's price. But for the next lens I wanted, the DA* 60-250 they both are now listing it for $1999 and it is on long term hold for now.
04-18-2012, 10:20 AM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimDickinson Quote
I ordered my DA* 50-135 on March 31st to avoid the jump - I paid B&H $849 and it is now $1,599. What a great way for them to help me cure my LBA - I won't be getting any more lenses for a while now, but luckily I have the minimum that I need.

If the price structure stays the way it is, it will work as intended for me though - I will most likely get my next lens from a local B&M. My 50-135 arrived damaged and I am waiting for a replacement right now. I predict that even if this does not hurt Pentax sales in the long run, it will mean a lot fewer people buying online. Amazon currently is selling the 50-135 for $1,149.99 which is better than B&H's price. But for the next lens I wanted, the DA* 60-250 they both are now listing it for $1999 and it is on long term hold for now.
Well, there is a just launched seller at Amazon that has the 60-250 for $1750 - eljamoquio
04-18-2012, 10:23 AM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Well, there is a just launched seller at Amazon that has the 60-250 for $1750 - eljamoquio
Haha, forum member here trying to make a quick dollar, wonder if he is giving away free mint jelly with that tossed salad...
04-18-2012, 10:38 AM   #267
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I've noticed that a lot of pentax online retailers aren't following the Pentax price increase. For example the Pentax DA 70 Limited is going for $550 with free shipping right now on Amazon from Samy's.
http://www.amazon.com/Pentax-Limited-Samsung-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000INZRZW/r...4770701&sr=1-1

And the DA 40 is going for $395
Amazon.com: Pentax DA 40mm f/2.8 Ultra Compact Lens for Pentax and Samsung Digital SLR Cameras: Camera & Photo
04-18-2012, 11:15 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by TopherTheME Quote
I've noticed that a lot of pentax online retailers aren't following the Pentax price increase. For example the Pentax DA 70 Limited is going for $550 with free shipping right now on Amazon from Samy's.
Amazon.com: Pentax 70mm f/2.4 DA Limited Lens for Pentax and Samsung Digital SLR Cameras: Electronics

And the DA 40 is going for $395
Amazon.com: Pentax DA 40mm f/2.8 Ultra Compact Lens for Pentax and Samsung Digital SLR Cameras: Camera & Photo
The 70 is Amazon Direct.

Do you think Contractor's A/V is an actual Pentax Dealer or are they the recipient of some gray market overstock from Best Buy's closed stores?
04-18-2012, 11:50 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The 70 is Amazon Direct.

Do you think Contractor's A/V is an actual Pentax Dealer or are they the recipient of some gray market overstock from Best Buy's closed stores?
from the contractors av web site

QuoteQuote:
8. NO WARRANTIES

CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM’S Customer SERVICES, THE CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM WEBSITE (INCLUDING ALL INFORMATION AND PRODUCTS THAT ARE REFERENCED OR LINKED TO IN THE CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM WEBSITE), AND ALL OTHER INFORMATION, DOCUMENTS, PRODUCTS, SOFTWARE, DOWNLOADS, REPAIR SERVICES, ADVICE, AND INFORMATION PROVIDED BY CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM AND ANY OF ITS THIRD-PARTY PRODUCT OR SERVICE PROVIDERS ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTIBILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ERRORS, OMISSIONS OR OTHER INADEQUACIES IN THE Customer SERVICES, THE CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM WEBSITE (INCLUDING ALL INFORMATION AND PRODUCTS THAT ARE REFENCED OR LINKED TO IN THE CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM WEBSITE), OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, DOCUMENTS, PRODUCTS, SOFTWARE, DOWNLOADS, REPAIR SERVICES, ADVICE, AND INFORMATION PROVIDED BY CONTRACTOR’S A/V.COM OR ANY OF ITS THIRD-PARTY PRODUCT OR SERVICE PROVIDERS.
but when you look at a product it says it comes with the manufacturers warranty (they don't carry much and in general they have higher prices on their site

they don't come up as an authorized web retailer on Pentax's site and it looks like they are not authorized to me
04-18-2012, 12:43 PM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
And this is one of the reasons it had to happen. the disparity was ridiculous, not only did it kill US B&M retail it also is disrupting other countries distribution channels. The ease of cross border shopping has made it imperative for manufacturers to keep a hold on the channel pricing worldwide
You went into a store and took the time of an employee who was paid to help you, the owner stocked the product, and provided the retail space, and the local distributor provides service and supply. Your government likely has some hidden taxes in the price as well. You then took all the incentive for the local people to even be there away buy shopping the grey market (BH Photo I'm sure is not an authorized distributor for Taiwan and they sure didn't send a percentage of the profit there to offset the cost of the locals providing you with service)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I bought a camera from them and they didn't have the lens in stock. It was a price quote for the FA43 which was unaffected by this pricing policy. so I'm not sure what service they provided me.

I do agree that something needed to be done about worldwide pricing discrepancies and I'm not appalled at the 15-25% price increases. But something isn't on the level when US sellers are able to sell the DA* zooms for nearly half of the new price and still make some money. Something else is going on with those price increases.
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