Reverse stacking for macro onto a 100mm macro lens - 28mm good?

GibbyTheMole · 04-26-2012, 08:36 AM

Hey all.

Wanting to try reverse stacking with my 100mm 1:1 macro prime mounted to the camera and another lens reversed on the end of that. So here's the question:

Would a 28mm reversed on the end of the 100mm be totally impossible to work with in the field? (3.57x magnification) or should I just stick with a 50mm at 2x magnification?

And what would the working distance be with a 28mm reversed?

Thanks,
Bob :-)

Anvh · 04-26-2012, 08:44 AM

28mm you need a lot of light and you need to stop down your lens a lot to get a bit of sharpness or else the DOF is so thing.

So in the field i would go with the 50mm

RioRico · 04-26-2012, 09:12 AM

I cover this technique a bit in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-lens-articles/152336-cheap-macro-b...lose-work.html

A 28:100 reverse-stack WOULD be unusable in most fields, unless you've setup a field lab. As Anvh said, you'll be working with very little light, and DOF is terribly thin. Your working distance would be the same as with any prime-reversal setup: about 45mm, the PK register distance. With the primary (100mm) at infinity focus, magnification is ~3.5:1; at close focus, somewhere upwards of there. You'll need light(s) and tripod and maybe a subject stage. Be sure to heed the other stacking rules: Leave the primary aperture wide-open; control the exposure by adjusting the aperture ring on the secondary (28mm); focus by changing camera+lens-to-subject distance, not the focus rings.

As with Anvh, I'd also recommend stacking nothing shorter than a 50mm onto your 100mm macro. Handheld fieldwork at 2:1 or greater is possible with a primary of 50mm or shorter, but hi.mag work is just pretty problematic with a 100mm primary.

Nass · 04-26-2012, 09:28 AM

For this sort of magnification the best bet is the Canon system using an MPE-65 lens. This lens will take you up to 5:1. The reason that using this lens makes it possible is because the aperture stays wide open whilst you're composing and then stops down for the shot. No other system offers this.

I looked into having a widget buit that could do this for me on Pentax using a custom servo, but it's a bodge job and there probably wasn't enough (physical) space for it: this would be a battery controlled servo sitting in front of a reversed lens. Yuck. Ironically, this can be done with old fashioned SLR cameras using the Pentax dual remote used for slide copying; as the remote was pressed, one cord went to the reversed lens stopping it down for the shot and the other went to the camera, taking the shot.

I've played with 28 reversed onto over 100, it's tough.

Anvh · 04-26-2012, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Nass

The reason that using this lens makes it possible is because the aperture stays wide open whilst you're composing and then stops down for the shot. No other system offers this.

???? which system these day work with a close aperture, they are all wide open to let light through for the AF system.

Nass · 04-26-2012, 01:36 PM

Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens)

alphanerd · 04-26-2012, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by Nass

Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens)

Is the second lens (the furthest from the sensor) usually stopped down? I was under the impression it wasn't, and only the primary lens was stopped down.

Nass · 04-26-2012, 01:50 PM

^^

Usually the reversed lens =)

*points up to Rio's note*

GibbyTheMole · 04-26-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by RioRico

A 28:100 reverse-stack WOULD be unusable in most fields, unless you've setup a field lab.

Righty-o. A 50 it is, then. :-)

Thanks,
Bobbo :-)

RioRico · 04-26-2012, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by alphanerd

Is the second lens (the furthest from the sensor) usually stopped down? I was under the impression it wasn't, and only the primary lens was stopped down.

The primary (mounted on the camera) should be a prime (not a zoom) with its aperture wide-open, else you'll get moderate-to-terrible vignetting. The secondary (reversed) should have an aperture ring so you can control exposure. I just did a quick rough test (I'm hampered by having packed most of my lenses for my journey homeward) and it looks like the secondary can be a zoom. I reversed my F35-70 onto my Meyer Telemegor 240/4.5 and didn't see any vignetting.

Anvh · 04-27-2012, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Nass

Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens)

Just use the aperture ring.

04-26-2012, 08:36 AM	#1
GibbyTheMole Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Iowa Photos: Albums Posts: 2,275	Reverse stacking for macro onto a 100mm macro lens - 28mm good? Hey all. Wanting to try reverse stacking with my 100mm 1:1 macro prime mounted to the camera and another lens reversed on the end of that. So here's the question: Would a 28mm reversed on the end of the 100mm be totally impossible to work with in the field? (3.57x magnification) or should I just stick with a 50mm at 2x magnification? And what would the working distance be with a 28mm reversed? Thanks, Bob :-)

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04-26-2012, 08:44 AM	#2
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	28mm you need a lot of light and you need to stop down your lens a lot to get a bit of sharpness or else the DOF is so thing. So in the field i would go with the 50mm

04-26-2012, 09:12 AM	#3
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	I cover this technique a bit in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-lens-articles/152336-cheap-macro-b...lose-work.html A 28:100 reverse-stack WOULD be unusable in most fields, unless you've setup a field lab. As Anvh said, you'll be working with very little light, and DOF is terribly thin. Your working distance would be the same as with any prime-reversal setup: about 45mm, the PK register distance. With the primary (100mm) at infinity focus, magnification is ~3.5:1; at close focus, somewhere upwards of there. You'll need light(s) and tripod and maybe a subject stage. Be sure to heed the other stacking rules: Leave the primary aperture wide-open; control the exposure by adjusting the aperture ring on the secondary (28mm); focus by changing camera+lens-to-subject distance, not the focus rings. As with Anvh, I'd also recommend stacking nothing shorter than a 50mm onto your 100mm macro. Handheld fieldwork at 2:1 or greater is possible with a primary of 50mm or shorter, but hi.mag work is just pretty problematic with a 100mm primary.

04-26-2012, 09:28 AM	#4
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	For this sort of magnification the best bet is the Canon system using an MPE-65 lens. This lens will take you up to 5:1. The reason that using this lens makes it possible is because the aperture stays wide open whilst you're composing and then stops down for the shot. No other system offers this. I looked into having a widget buit that could do this for me on Pentax using a custom servo, but it's a bodge job and there probably wasn't enough (physical) space for it: this would be a battery controlled servo sitting in front of a reversed lens. Yuck. Ironically, this can be done with old fashioned SLR cameras using the Pentax dual remote used for slide copying; as the remote was pressed, one cord went to the reversed lens stopping it down for the shot and the other went to the camera, taking the shot. I've played with 28 reversed onto over 100, it's tough.

04-26-2012, 10:59 AM	#5
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Nass The reason that using this lens makes it possible is because the aperture stays wide open whilst you're composing and then stops down for the shot. No other system offers this. ???? which system these day work with a close aperture, they are all wide open to let light through for the AF system.

04-26-2012, 01:36 PM	#6
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens)

04-26-2012, 01:40 PM	#7
alphanerd Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 119	Originally posted by Nass Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens) Is the second lens (the furthest from the sensor) usually stopped down? I was under the impression it wasn't, and only the primary lens was stopped down.

04-26-2012, 01:50 PM	#8
Nass Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,402	^^ Usually the reversed lens =) points up to Rio's note

04-26-2012, 03:06 PM	#9
GibbyTheMole Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Iowa Photos: Albums Posts: 2,275 Original Poster	Originally posted by RioRico A 28:100 reverse-stack WOULD be unusable in most fields, unless you've setup a field lab. Righty-o. A 50 it is, then. :-) Thanks, Bobbo :-)

04-26-2012, 03:21 PM	#10
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by alphanerd Is the second lens (the furthest from the sensor) usually stopped down? I was under the impression it wasn't, and only the primary lens was stopped down. The primary (mounted on the camera) should be a prime (not a zoom) with its aperture wide-open, else you'll get moderate-to-terrible vignetting. The secondary (reversed) should have an aperture ring so you can control exposure. I just did a quick rough test (I'm hampered by having packed most of my lenses for my journey homeward) and it looks like the secondary can be a zoom. I reversed my F35-70 onto my Meyer Telemegor 240/4.5 and didn't see any vignetting.

04-27-2012, 02:56 AM	#11
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Nass Right. But when you reverse your Pentax lens onto your other Pentax lens, you don't have the benefit of that, do you? Which was my point. If you reverse a Nikon lens onto a Nikon lens to get to 5:1 do you have the benefit of that? (aperture controlled from body on the reversed lens) Just use the aperture ring.