Photozone re-reviews FA 43 Limited

Designosophy · 05-31-2012, 06:17 AM

Put theory and measurement up against empirical observation, and guess who wins every time?

ElJamoquio · 05-31-2012, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by Designosophy

Put theory and measurement up against empirical observation, and guess who wins every time?

Huh? I think I get what you're saying, but it's a bit confusing... because "empirical observation" is the same thing as "measurement".

Designosophy · 05-31-2012, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Huh? I think I get what your saying, but it's a bit confusing... because "empirical observation" is the same thing as "measurement".

You're right. Let me see if I can rephrase:

Observed photographic results trump results assumed by deduction from measurements. This is much in the same way that observing a bumblebee fly trumps the assumption that it cannot fly based on wing measurements and theories of how flight works. (Yes, I know that bumblebee flight is understood now, but it wasn't always.)

Class A · 06-01-2012, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Blue

Actually, he started out with the M 40/2.8 design but reworked the elements, especially the rear element.

Interesting. Do you remember where you have read about this?

Asha · 06-01-2012, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by Designosophy

You're right. Let me see if I can rephrase:

Observed photographic results trump results assumed by deduction from measurements. This is much in the same way that observing a bumblebee fly trumps the assumption that it cannot fly based on wing measurements and theories of how flight works. (Yes, I know that bumblebee flight is understood now, but it wasn't always.)

Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat.

ElJamoquio · 06-01-2012, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Asha

Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat.

Empirical observation allowed people to believe the earth was round, too, though...

...so which level of empirical observation is taking a picture? I think I'm in the second camp.

**Rondec** · 06-01-2012, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Asha

Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat.

People have believed that the earth was round, at least since the times of Plato and Aristotle. Perhaps the "common people" didn't, but the educated people were generally of a different opinion.

When Columbus wanted to "sail west to go east," the issue that the educated people had, was not that they thought he would sail off the end of the eart, it was that they thought it was much to far to sail for the vessels of that day. And they were right. If North and South America weren't here, it would have been much too far. Columbus thought that the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan was 2300 miles, while it is more like 12,000 miles. He was wrong, but then again, even blind squirrels find acorns occasionally.

ElJamoquio · 06-01-2012, 07:55 AM

...and empirical observation of ships disappearing over the horizon was one of the first clues to the curvature of the earth.

Blue · 06-02-2012, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Interesting. Do you remember where you have read about this?

I have been out of the country for a week (actually was when I made that post.) and had limited access to the net. While the formula and layout are the same, look at the front and rear elements as well as the others. Plus, the LTD has the Ghostless Coatings on that rear element. Somewhere the designer stated in an interview that the DA LTD was a different lens optically, but I can't find it right now.

M 40/2.8 Pancake

DA 40mm LTD

Special Features: aspherical element(s), ghostless coating

M 40/2.8

DA 40/2.8 AL Limited

Class A · 06-03-2012, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Blue

While the formula and layout are the same, look at the front and rear elements as well as the others. Plus, the LTD has the Ghostless Coatings on that rear element. Somewhere the designer stated in an interview that the DA LTD was a different lens optically, but I can't find it right now.

Thanks!
I'm always interested in background information to optical designs, so that's why I asked about the source, but I understand that it is sometimes difficult to find a certain interview or text again.

05-31-2012, 08:10 AM	#137
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Designosophy Put theory and measurement up against empirical observation, and guess who wins every time? Huh? I think I get what you're saying, but it's a bit confusing... because "empirical observation" is the same thing as "measurement". Last edited by ElJamoquio; 05-31-2012 at 10:21 AM.

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05-31-2012, 06:17 AM	#136
Designosophy Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northeast Philadelphia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,137	Put theory and measurement up against empirical observation, and guess who wins every time?

05-31-2012, 10:01 AM	#138
Designosophy Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northeast Philadelphia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,137	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Huh? I think I get what your saying, but it's a bit confusing... because "empirical observation" is the same thing as "measurement". You're right. Let me see if I can rephrase: Observed photographic results trump results assumed by deduction from measurements. This is much in the same way that observing a bumblebee fly trumps the assumption that it cannot fly based on wing measurements and theories of how flight works. (Yes, I know that bumblebee flight is understood now, but it wasn't always.)

06-01-2012, 05:22 AM	#139
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Blue Actually, he started out with the M 40/2.8 design but reworked the elements, especially the rear element. Interesting. Do you remember where you have read about this?

06-01-2012, 05:49 AM	#140
Asha Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Photos: Albums Posts: 100	Originally posted by Designosophy You're right. Let me see if I can rephrase: Observed photographic results trump results assumed by deduction from measurements. This is much in the same way that observing a bumblebee fly trumps the assumption that it cannot fly based on wing measurements and theories of how flight works. (Yes, I know that bumblebee flight is understood now, but it wasn't always.) Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat.

06-01-2012, 07:12 AM	#141
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Asha Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat. Empirical observation allowed people to believe the earth was round, too, though... ...so which level of empirical observation is taking a picture? I think I'm in the second camp.

06-01-2012, 07:41 AM	#142
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by Asha Empircal observation also lead people to believe the world was flat. People have believed that the earth was round, at least since the times of Plato and Aristotle. Perhaps the "common people" didn't, but the educated people were generally of a different opinion. When Columbus wanted to "sail west to go east," the issue that the educated people had, was not that they thought he would sail off the end of the eart, it was that they thought it was much to far to sail for the vessels of that day. And they were right. If North and South America weren't here, it would have been much too far. Columbus thought that the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan was 2300 miles, while it is more like 12,000 miles. He was wrong, but then again, even blind squirrels find acorns occasionally.

06-01-2012, 07:55 AM	#143
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	...and empirical observation of ships disappearing over the horizon was one of the first clues to the curvature of the earth.

06-02-2012, 07:52 PM	#144
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Class A Interesting. Do you remember where you have read about this? I have been out of the country for a week (actually was when I made that post.) and had limited access to the net. While the formula and layout are the same, look at the front and rear elements as well as the others. Plus, the LTD has the Ghostless Coatings on that rear element. Somewhere the designer stated in an interview that the DA LTD was a different lens optically, but I can't find it right now. M 40/2.8 Pancake DA 40mm LTD Special Features: aspherical element(s), ghostless coating M 40/2.8 DA 40/2.8 AL Limited

06-03-2012, 12:32 AM	#145
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Blue While the formula and layout are the same, look at the front and rear elements as well as the others. Plus, the LTD has the Ghostless Coatings on that rear element. Somewhere the designer stated in an interview that the DA LTD was a different lens optically, but I can't find it right now. Thanks! I'm always interested in background information to optical designs, so that's why I asked about the source, but I understand that it is sometimes difficult to find a certain interview or text again.