Canon 40mm Pancake: Okay, Pentax, time to wake up on lens pricing!

eddie1960 · 06-12-2012, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

Wikipedia is fine for some things but you can never use it as reference you know.

Sometimes the Dutch wiki does not even agree with the English wiki for example, go figure

oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits)

Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift

ihasa · 06-12-2012, 10:42 AM

Sorry Frank!

Clear difference in OOF highlights (most of us call them 'bokeh') there.

Now I agree rounded blades don't make all the difference in the world to your images, especially if there aren't any specular highlights; and they don't make any difference whatsoever to wide open shooting. But that's not to say they don't have some sort of value. I am not a huge fan of hexagonkeh.

Originally posted by Rondec

Anyway, it was the reason that I sold my Sigma 30mm and bought the FA limited 31mm.

Actually it was the odd tick or v shaped 'bokeh' that put me off my Sigma 30mm. I think astigmatism in the lens causes it?

Anvh · 06-12-2012, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits)

Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift

The english wiki in this case mostly focus on the aperture shape while the dutch wiki says only that the shape of the blur spot is defined by the aperture and that round one is desired but for the rest they talk mostly about the hard and soft blur. This quite aperent by simply looking at the photo's used, the english site mostly have those shots with the highlights spots while the Dutch site simply has 2 photos with good and average bokeh

Anyway it was Mike Johnston who introduce the word Boke to the western world and later change it to Bokeh.
The Online Photographer: Bokeh?What It Is

Funny enough he points to the site of Paul van Walree (Bokeh) as one of the best that explains the matter, while it is seen as the best site about bokeh by the person who introduced the word it's regarded as irrelevant by some.

eddie1960 · 06-12-2012, 11:46 AM

Given it is a term being applied to a technique that existed long before the word it is a flexible concept. my biggest issue with the term and concept is the fact that the mania for it has eclipsed many other aspects of photography. want to raise your hits on flickr just tag Bokeh or Bokelicious.
All that being said the articles basically say it boils down to a preference

I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model)
thing is Bokeh is dependent not just on blades but ditance to subject, subject to background, focal length.... blah blah, i know you know all this . so it's really down to a mater of preference, particularly if all other things are equal (optically the da 40 xs and 40 ltd pretty much meet that comparison - but the limited is the better lens in many other ways)

Anvh · 06-12-2012, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by creampuff

It seems pretty clear you've never held or used both versions of the DA 40mm lenses before because if you did you'd know that there is a difference in the aperture blades. The aperture blades are rounded on the new 40mm XS.

I thought i made this for you to show you the difference but sadly i forgot which on is which, since you know the difference surely you can help.

Anvh · 06-12-2012, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by eddie1960

I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model)

If you've a lens with soft bokeh then you don't see the edge quite well, example.

80-200 at 135 f/4.5

135 f/4.5 this lens as 9 straight blades for his main aperture.

The highlights aren't really highlights any more since they blend.

RioRico · 06-12-2012, 01:13 PM

I'm trying to remember how this relates to lens pricing, and the Canon vs Pentax pancake 40s. Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable?

Oh yeah, my preferences: I like smooth creamy bokeh with complex subjects, and jittery psycho bokeh with bland dull smooth subjects. Textural contrast, that's my bag.

Well, I'm feeling rather boke (hazy, senile) now. Think I'll go change the birdcage. Wait, we don't have a bird. OK then, I'll go change the squirrel cage. Move over, Otis.

Last edited by RioRico; 06-12-2012 at 01:20 PM.

Anvh · 06-12-2012, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by RioRico

Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable?

We are right?
Sadly no comparison photos yet.

normhead · 06-12-2012, 01:23 PM

I can't believe no one sent me an email to tell me this thread was still going on. Oh wait, I deleted my subscription, that's why I didn't know. Now I'm going to have to delete it again.

Did you miss me?

Nice round bokeh up there, how much does that cost? Thanks for the hint on increasing my hits with the word Bokeh... but after having 12 files go over 500,000 hits, I'm not thinking I'm going to be impressed. Although after a month or two maybe I'll go back to thinking 1000 hits would be impressive and start getting excited when I get over 600 again.

Anvh · 06-12-2012, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Did you miss me?

RioRico · 06-12-2012, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

Sadly no comparison photos yet.

It's hard to get comparison shots from a lens that hasn't yet shipped. Oh, those Canon sluggards!

normhead · 06-12-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Oh, those Canon sluggards!

At least their fanboys are already out declaring it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. No sluggards there.

deanallan · 06-15-2012, 08:12 AM

bokeh

and

Bokeh in Pictures

If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job

.....

**Rondec** · 06-15-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by deanallan

bokeh

and

Bokeh in Pictures

If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job

.....

If there are no highlights, there will be no difference in the out of focus areas, if the lens formula is the same.

Anvh · 06-15-2012, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by deanallan

If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job

.....

Posted this a bit earlier, not a blind test though.
the optics of the lenses are the same but the WR has rounded blades.
DFA 100/2.8 WR, f/8 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

But most of us already agreed to that actually.

06-15-2012, 08:12 AM	#118
deanallan New Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 16	So far the best explanation of boke bokeh and Bokeh in Pictures If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job .....

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06-12-2012, 10:26 AM	#106
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Originally posted by Anvh Wikipedia is fine for some things but you can never use it as reference you know. Sometimes the Dutch wiki does not even agree with the English wiki for example, go figure oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits) Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift

06-12-2012, 10:42 AM	#107
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066	Sorry Frank! Clear difference in OOF highlights (most of us call them 'bokeh') there. Now I agree rounded blades don't make all the difference in the world to your images, especially if there aren't any specular highlights; and they don't make any difference whatsoever to wide open shooting. But that's not to say they don't have some sort of value. I am not a huge fan of hexagonkeh. Originally posted by Rondec Anyway, it was the reason that I sold my Sigma 30mm and bought the FA limited 31mm. Actually it was the odd tick or v shaped 'bokeh' that put me off my Sigma 30mm. I think astigmatism in the lens causes it?

06-12-2012, 11:33 AM	#108
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by eddie1960 oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits) Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift The english wiki in this case mostly focus on the aperture shape while the dutch wiki says only that the shape of the blur spot is defined by the aperture and that round one is desired but for the rest they talk mostly about the hard and soft blur. This quite aperent by simply looking at the photo's used, the english site mostly have those shots with the highlights spots while the Dutch site simply has 2 photos with good and average bokeh Anyway it was Mike Johnston who introduce the word Boke to the western world and later change it to Bokeh. The Online Photographer: Bokeh?What It Is Funny enough he points to the site of Paul van Walree (Bokeh) as one of the best that explains the matter, while it is seen as the best site about bokeh by the person who introduced the word it's regarded as irrelevant by some.

06-12-2012, 11:46 AM	#109
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Given it is a term being applied to a technique that existed long before the word it is a flexible concept. my biggest issue with the term and concept is the fact that the mania for it has eclipsed many other aspects of photography. want to raise your hits on flickr just tag Bokeh or Bokelicious. All that being said the articles basically say it boils down to a preference I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model) thing is Bokeh is dependent not just on blades but ditance to subject, subject to background, focal length.... blah blah, i know you know all this . so it's really down to a mater of preference, particularly if all other things are equal (optically the da 40 xs and 40 ltd pretty much meet that comparison - but the limited is the better lens in many other ways)

06-12-2012, 01:07 PM	#110
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by creampuff It seems pretty clear you've never held or used both versions of the DA 40mm lenses before because if you did you'd know that there is a difference in the aperture blades. The aperture blades are rounded on the new 40mm XS. I thought i made this for you to show you the difference but sadly i forgot which on is which, since you know the difference surely you can help.

06-12-2012, 01:12 PM	#111
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by eddie1960 I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model) If you've a lens with soft bokeh then you don't see the edge quite well, example. 80-200 at 135 f/4.5 135 f/4.5 this lens as 9 straight blades for his main aperture. The highlights aren't really highlights any more since they blend.

06-12-2012, 01:13 PM	#112
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	I'm trying to remember how this relates to lens pricing, and the Canon vs Pentax pancake 40s. Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable? Oh yeah, my preferences: I like smooth creamy bokeh with complex subjects, and jittery psycho bokeh with bland dull smooth subjects. Textural contrast, that's my bag. Well, I'm feeling rather boke (hazy, senile) now. Think I'll go change the birdcage. Wait, we don't have a bird. OK then, I'll go change the squirrel cage. Move over, Otis. Last edited by RioRico; 06-12-2012 at 01:20 PM.

06-12-2012, 01:18 PM	#113
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by RioRico Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable? We are right? Sadly no comparison photos yet.

06-12-2012, 01:23 PM	#114
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,450	I can't believe no one sent me an email to tell me this thread was still going on. Oh wait, I deleted my subscription, that's why I didn't know. Now I'm going to have to delete it again. Did you miss me? Nice round bokeh up there, how much does that cost? Thanks for the hint on increasing my hits with the word Bokeh... but after having 12 files go over 500,000 hits, I'm not thinking I'm going to be impressed. Although after a month or two maybe I'll go back to thinking 1000 hits would be impressive and start getting excited when I get over 600 again.

06-12-2012, 01:36 PM	#115
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by normhead Did you miss me?

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06-12-2012, 01:37 PM	#116
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by Anvh Sadly no comparison photos yet. It's hard to get comparison shots from a lens that hasn't yet shipped. Oh, those Canon sluggards!

06-12-2012, 01:45 PM	#117
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,450	Quote: Oh, those Canon sluggards! At least their fanboys are already out declaring it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. No sluggards there.

06-15-2012, 08:28 AM	#119
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by deanallan bokeh and Bokeh in Pictures If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job ..... If there are no highlights, there will be no difference in the out of focus areas, if the lens formula is the same.

06-15-2012, 01:52 PM	#120
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by deanallan If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job ..... Posted this a bit earlier, not a blind test though. the optics of the lenses are the same but the WR has rounded blades. DFA 100/2.8 WR, f/8 \| Flickr - Photo Sharing! But most of us already agreed to that actually.