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06-12-2012, 10:26 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Wikipedia is fine for some things but you can never use it as reference you know.

Sometimes the Dutch wiki does not even agree with the English wiki for example, go figure
oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits)

Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift

06-12-2012, 10:42 AM   #107
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Sorry Frank!





Clear difference in OOF highlights (most of us call them 'bokeh') there.

Now I agree rounded blades don't make all the difference in the world to your images, especially if there aren't any specular highlights; and they don't make any difference whatsoever to wide open shooting. But that's not to say they don't have some sort of value. I am not a huge fan of hexagonkeh.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Anyway, it was the reason that I sold my Sigma 30mm and bought the FA limited 31mm.
Actually it was the odd tick or v shaped 'bokeh' that put me off my Sigma 30mm. I think astigmatism in the lens causes it?
06-12-2012, 11:33 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
oh I agree Wiki is not an academic reference but it is a starting point that generally represents current definitions, but anyone can edit (I've seen some pretty funny edits)

Given the ephemeral nature of language definitions can be open to broader interpretations of things like Bokeh, where there is no scientific standard. It's artistic standards and those shift
The english wiki in this case mostly focus on the aperture shape while the dutch wiki says only that the shape of the blur spot is defined by the aperture and that round one is desired but for the rest they talk mostly about the hard and soft blur. This quite aperent by simply looking at the photo's used, the english site mostly have those shots with the highlights spots while the Dutch site simply has 2 photos with good and average bokeh


Anyway it was Mike Johnston who introduce the word Boke to the western world and later change it to Bokeh.
The Online Photographer: Bokeh?What It Is

Funny enough he points to the site of Paul van Walree (Bokeh) as one of the best that explains the matter, while it is seen as the best site about bokeh by the person who introduced the word it's regarded as irrelevant by some.
06-12-2012, 11:46 AM   #109
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Given it is a term being applied to a technique that existed long before the word it is a flexible concept. my biggest issue with the term and concept is the fact that the mania for it has eclipsed many other aspects of photography. want to raise your hits on flickr just tag Bokeh or Bokelicious.
All that being said the articles basically say it boils down to a preference

I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model)
thing is Bokeh is dependent not just on blades but ditance to subject, subject to background, focal length.... blah blah, i know you know all this . so it's really down to a mater of preference, particularly if all other things are equal (optically the da 40 xs and 40 ltd pretty much meet that comparison - but the limited is the better lens in many other ways)

06-12-2012, 01:07 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
It seems pretty clear you've never held or used both versions of the DA 40mm lenses before because if you did you'd know that there is a difference in the aperture blades. The aperture blades are rounded on the new 40mm XS.
I thought i made this for you to show you the difference but sadly i forgot which on is which, since you know the difference surely you can help.

06-12-2012, 01:12 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I think anyone who is getting a lot of highlights in their OOF will likely prefer the rounded aperture (I know I'm not a massive stop sign highlight fan) and it is acheieved with less blades (and less chance for complication then) on rounded blades versus say a 20 blade monster like the Tair 11 or the Pentacon 135 with 15 or 17 (depending on which model)
If you've a lens with soft bokeh then you don't see the edge quite well, example.

80-200 at 135 f/4.5



135 f/4.5 this lens as 9 straight blades for his main aperture.

The highlights aren't really highlights any more since they blend.
06-12-2012, 01:13 PM   #112
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I'm trying to remember how this relates to lens pricing, and the Canon vs Pentax pancake 40s. Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable?

Oh yeah, my preferences: I like smooth creamy bokeh with complex subjects, and jittery psycho bokeh with bland dull smooth subjects. Textural contrast, that's my bag.

Well, I'm feeling rather boke (hazy, senile) now. Think I'll go change the birdcage. Wait, we don't have a bird. OK then, I'll go change the squirrel cage. Move over, Otis.

Last edited by RioRico; 06-12-2012 at 01:20 PM.
06-12-2012, 01:18 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Are we trying to decide which 40 is the most bokehalicious and thus valuable?
We are right?
Sadly no comparison photos yet.

06-12-2012, 01:23 PM   #114
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I can't believe no one sent me an email to tell me this thread was still going on. Oh wait, I deleted my subscription, that's why I didn't know. Now I'm going to have to delete it again.

Did you miss me?

Nice round bokeh up there, how much does that cost? Thanks for the hint on increasing my hits with the word Bokeh... but after having 12 files go over 500,000 hits, I'm not thinking I'm going to be impressed. Although after a month or two maybe I'll go back to thinking 1000 hits would be impressive and start getting excited when I get over 600 again.
06-12-2012, 01:36 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Did you miss me?
06-12-2012, 01:37 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Sadly no comparison photos yet.
It's hard to get comparison shots from a lens that hasn't yet shipped. Oh, those Canon sluggards!
06-12-2012, 01:45 PM   #117
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QuoteQuote:
Oh, those Canon sluggards!
At least their fanboys are already out declaring it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. No sluggards there.
06-15-2012, 08:12 AM   #118
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So far the best explanation of boke

bokeh

and

Bokeh in Pictures

If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job .....
06-15-2012, 08:28 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by deanallan Quote
bokeh

and

Bokeh in Pictures

If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job .....
If there are no highlights, there will be no difference in the out of focus areas, if the lens formula is the same.
06-15-2012, 01:52 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by deanallan Quote
If you take a look at Frank's picture and cover the highlights - can you spot the difference ? That would be my question. I think if there is someone willing to create a blind test of pictures of bokeh (not with highlights) it should be interesting to collate the results and see if a high proportion of people can spot the lens using a more rounder aperture blades. I propose that someone not to be me as I am lazy as hell will probably not do a proper job .....
Posted this a bit earlier, not a blind test though.
the optics of the lenses are the same but the WR has rounded blades.
DFA 100/2.8 WR, f/8 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

But most of us already agreed to that actually.
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