[QFish]

Here's a tissue. You have some spittle coming out of your mouth.

It is a scream.

[normhead]

Pricing is one issue, but other major features needed are: Faster sensor readout to improve AF speed in CDAF and phase detect sensor like in nikon 1 system (for use in live view) with AF motor in 18-135mm or 18-250mm silent and fast. This will make K-mount cameras one of the best values for traditional still camera use AND best responsive liveview DSLR with lots of legacy lens support
At that point people will not complain too much about lens pricing

Perhaps some, but, most will just keep complaining, about something, we don't know what. I don't complain. If I need something Pentax doesn't have, I'll switch. What's the point in complaining? You guys go on and on and whine and whine. Just take pictures FFS. No one cares if you stay, no one cares if you switch. Just switch systems, quietly, please. Not for us, for your own good. Find something that makes you happy. Or at least something that makes you stop complaining. What is with you people?

There are lots of great systems out there. Maybe you can find something you like better.You don't buy a car, and then start whining because you didn't buy one suited to your needs. You bought the car , you're complaining about your decision. You bought a Pentax, you're complaining about your stupid decision. Not Pentax's decision, your decision. If you whiners had an once of integrity, you would have been out of here long ago. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't need Pentax to be the cheapest system. I just need it to be what I need, and it is, and all staying with them has to be is cheaper than switching. I simply cannot believe that people who are so unhappy with Pentax, still own Pentax cameras. If I was crying like some of the guys posting on here I'd be embarrassed. I don't know how I'd show my face. But hey, that's just me. I'm take control kind of guy. I run my life. I don't spend my time complaining about the price of this or the price of that. If you want something someone else has, you have to pay their price. If you don't want it, buy something else. Is this a difficult concept?

If Adam were smart he'd start a website for people pushing other systems. And another one for those who just want to complain about what Pentax has and hasn't done. Or invent a way I can block these stupid posts. Why do I want this crap on the top of the browse new posts page when the real Pentax users, those in post your photos and photocritque etc. don't seem to even get there. Drowned out by the whiners, complainers and politics. It's odd, the joy is hidden, the BS floats to the top, for every one to look at.

[jay_akita]

the optics are the same with the limited, no need to wait.

Not according to DXOMark? I could have swore somebody else tested the lens too (SLRGear.com?) and found the new 40mm has lower optical performance? Either way I'm very curious as to how the new Canon will stack up - I think the Pentax pancakes look better but built in (fast & reliable) SWM for 200 bucks sounds pretty amazing...

[mattdm]

Unfortunately the hybrid, on-sensor phase + contrast autofocus works only with STM lenses (lenses equipped with a linear stepper motor) and it's even written in Canon's press release -see the shooter:

"1 AF in Live View and Movies subject to use with Canon stepping motor (STM) lenses"

Canon announces EOS 650D / Rebel T4i 18MP touch-screen DSLR with Hybrid AF: Digital Photography Review

Right; what's silly is to suggest that Canon is deliberately crippling the Hybrid AF in order to force everyone to buy STM lenses — the "screw us like this" comment. If Canon could reasonably make the Hybrid AF work with every lens they've ever made, I'm sure they would.

[TOUGEFC]

Right on. Here's my take on this:

New Canon 40mm Pancake - A Threat to Pentax? - Pentax Camera News & Rumors - PentaxForums.com

It sure is a threat to Pentax, this 40mm Canon pancake is just the begining, I bet they have a pancake short tele and wide in the works, and both will be cheaper than Pentax's offerings plus have quiet in-built AF motors.

[Fontan]

I don't think that complaining is bad. For me one good reason I frequent here is to watch people whine about this or that, because I think it is funny. It is to me more amusing and entertaining than lame TV sitcoms, for example.

On the other hand, I do think that one very compelling reason many people bought into Pentax was that they used to represent good value for the quality of stuff they had on their line ups. After all, yes there are nice systems out there, but not one is clearly superior than the other from the opticl performance standpoint. Most people cannot tell apart pics taken by different brands if put to a blind test. So lots of hard earned dollars and pounds and euros were invested in Pentax system because of what was then perceived to be a good value. Now, all of sudden lens prices are jacked up, and the uproars ensued. Very natural reaction I would say. It is to many people relatively speaking quite expensive to get out of a system and move onto another. It is not like Leica users leaving their brand and moving to Pentax.

Pentax, however, knows that most won't jump ship though. I don't think that they need to have a similar pricing scheme as Canikon, because Pentax is not in the direct competition with them. Most fanboys will pay whatever the prices are thrown at them, some after complaining and all. But pay they will, which I find most amusing . . .

[RioRico]

Pentax, however, knows that most won't jump ship though. I don't think that they need to have a similar pricing scheme as Canikon, because Pentax is not in the direct competition with them. Most fanboys will pay whatever the prices are thrown at them, some after complaining and all. But pay they will, I find it really amusing . . .

In much of the world, "Pentax is not in direct competition" just because Pentax isn't in competition, period. No marketing, or ineffectual marketing. No visible presence. No threat. Rather as Leica isn't in direct competition with consumer products. Ricoh likely won't push Pentax down a Leica path, so Pentax will HAVE to compete with Canikony. Or does anyone believe that Pentax would survive as a fanboi niche?

Hmm, I just noticed a parallel, between what I know of the 'serious' camera world, and USA national politics. Both are two-party systems. Both systems also have third parties and fringe groups. In USA politics, when a third party has too many good ideas and becomes too successful, its positions are co-opted (plagiarized, reverse-engineered) by the major parties, and the minor parties dry up and blow away. Is Pentax being co-opted? Is innovation punished?

[ogl]

Right on. Here's my take on this:

New Canon 40mm Pancake - A Threat to Pentax? - Pentax Camera News & Rumors - PentaxForums.com

Add FA43/1.9 - it's pancake lens too.

[Anvh]

Unfortunately the hybrid, on-sensor phase + contrast autofocus works only with STM lenses (lenses equipped with a linear stepper motor) and it's even written in Canon's press release -see the shooter:

"1 AF in Live View and Movies subject to use with Canon stepping motor (STM) lenses"

Canon announces EOS 650D / Rebel T4i 18MP touch-screen DSLR with Hybrid AF: Digital Photography Review

1 AF in Live View and Movies subject to use with Canon stepping motor (STM) lenses

Found a bit more and it seems to be right indeed to a degree.

With two simultaneously-announced STM lenses, the Canon T4i will still allow contrast-detection autofocus over the remainder of the sensor area, letting the focus point seamlessly move between phase-detection and contrast-detection types as it roams the frame. This capability isn't available with non-STM lenses, which are limited to PDAF at the center of the frame only.

[Anvh]

Not according to DXOMark? I could have swore somebody else tested the lens too (SLRGear.com?) and found the new 40mm has lower optical performance? Either way I'm very curious as to how the new Canon will stack up - I think the Pentax pancakes look better but built in (fast & reliable) SWM for 200 bucks sounds pretty amazing...

Very strange because the lens design is preciesly the same, the only thing that's different is that the XS has SP coating i believe.

[Anvh]

Right; what's silly is to suggest that Canon is deliberately crippling the Hybrid AF in order to force everyone to buy STM lenses — the "screw us like this" comment. If Canon could reasonably make the Hybrid AF work with every lens they've ever made, I'm sure they would.

If you can come up with a reasonable technical reason i'll believe you.

[Heie]

Dear Pentax: please come to grips with reality.

I've been looking seriously at Nikon lately which I had never done in the past.

I'm a big Pentax fan and own a bunch of gear but I agree their prices are getting out of control relative to their performance (mainly AF and warranty with SDM)

Thanks Matt, it's useful to remind Pentax of competitive pricing.

but i think the competitive issue is not at the entry level rather on the higher end,

I agree 100%. Prices has gone insane in pentax land.

Pentax need to make the ship more water tight.

and on and on and on and on.

I am getting absolutely sick and tired of self-proclaimed Pentaxians bitching and complaining about how expensive the Pentax offerings are. Are some of their lenses more expensive than their Canonikon counterparts? Sure. But at the end of the day, we always say a camera company is judged by it's flagship lines. Hence why "Pentax will never be considered a pro camera maker until there's FF." On that I call utter bullshit, and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Is the K-5 not good enough for you? Are you THAT GOOD that you personally have outresolved it's sensor and capabilities? Are you better than all those "pros" that have ditched their FF gear for the K-5?

No, instead we just bitch and complain because that's all we do. I got it, it's human nature - but it has gotten to the point of spoiled and entitled brats that we are unable to even catch a glimpse of the forest for the trees.

So how about we judge the flagship counterparts offered by the Big 3?

PENTAX
Pentax K-5 Body - $919 - 740g (with battery) - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 SDM - $1,099.00 - 565g - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 SDM - $999.95 - 686g - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 60-250mm f/4 SDM - $1399.00 - 1040g - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 55mm f/1.4 SDM - $669.95 - 375g - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 200mm f/2.8 SDM - $964.95 - 825g - 100% Weather Sealed
DA* 300mm f/4 SDM - $1,199.95 - 1070g - 100% Weather Sealed

Total: $7251.80, 5301g



CANON
Canon 7D Body - $1,699.00 - 860g - 100% Weather Sealed
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM - $1,599.00 - 953g - No Stabilization - NOT Sealed
EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM - $2,299.00 - 1490g - "Resistance" to dust/water
EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM - $1,699.00 - 1,380g - NOT Sealed
EF 85mm f/1.2L USM - $2,199.00 - 1030g - No Stabilization - NOT Sealed
EF 200mm f/2.8L USM - $799.00 - 765g - No Stabilization - NOT Sealed
EF 300mm f/4L USM - $1,449.00 - 1190g - No Stabilization - NOT Sealed

-*EF 100-400 - Note that this lens has a variable aperture that is from f/4.5 to 5.6 while it's APS-C counterpart, the DA* 60-250, is a constant f/4 throughout.
-*EF 85 f/1.2 - Note that this lens is faster than it's APS-C counterpart, the DA* 55mm, however Canon does not offer an 85mm f/1.4

Total: $11,743, 7668g



NIKON
Nikon D7000 Body - $1,196.95 - 780g - 100% Weather Sealed
Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G - $1,886.95 - 900g - "Resistance" to dust/water
Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G VR II - $2,396.95 - 1540g - "Resistance" to dust/water
Nikkor 80-400mm f/4.5-5.6 VR - $1,529.00 - 1,360g - NOT Sealed
Nikkor 85 f/1.4G - $1,699.95 - 660g - No Stabilization - "Resistance" to dust/water
NO 200mm f/2.8 OFFERED
Nikkor 300mm f/4L - DISCONTINUED - 1440g - No Stabilization - NOT Sealed

-*Incomplete lineup by Nikon - unable to completely compare - Note that without 2 telephoto lenses, Nikon kit still exceeds price and weight of the entire Pentax DA* lineup.
-*Nikkor 80-400 - Note that this lens has a variable aperture that is from f/4.5 to 5.6 while it's APS-C counterpart, the DA* 60-250, is a constant f/4 throughout.

Total: $9211.85, 6680g


Other lenses that Pentax offers (i.e. you don't need to go straight to the pro-line with Pentax in order to get weather sealing).
Pentax DA 18-55 WR - $179.95
Pentax DA 18-135 f/3.5-5.6 WR - $459.95
Pentax DA 50-200 f/4-5.6 WR - $249.95
Pentax DFA 100mm Macro WR - $649.95 (Canon equivalent is $1049 and Nikon equivalent is $879)



Guess what the brand new guy or gal who comes to PF.com or DPReview looking for information on Pentax's offerings sees?

"Pentax sucks"

"Pentax is way out of touch with reality!"

"Pentax's pricing is completely egregious!"

And guess what you just did - you just scared away another potential Pentaxian. Multiply that by several hundred, if not several thousand, and that would have helped fund the R&D and products we crave by adding revenue and market share to Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company.

So go ahead, keep your camera in its case, let the batteries go stale, and spend all of your time here complaining about what a terrible company Pentax is and they can't seem to deliver anything right.

I hope you're proud of yourselves.

Does Pentax have it's shortcomings? Of course it does. Guess what? Nikon and Canon and even Leica do too. But I don't lose focus of the greater perspective: I, for one, couldn't be happier with any of my Pentax gear. And I look to add to that as needed, even if that means paying a bit extra for the Pentax equivalent if there is one - because that money comes right back to me with more and better products.

Respectfully,
Heie

[JinDesu]

Heie, I love you.

It's nice to think that the Canon 40mm is coming in at $200, which has it competing with the 40mm XS, not the Limited. Butit's a bit half-assed, no? Making a pancake prime that's not as pancake? It's not that much cheaper than the XS, it's probably not going to perform better, it's only good part is the silent motor, but are we in Pentax complaining about screw drive? All reports of the XS has been favourable, especially it's focus speed.

Canon is going to get praise for its 40mm because it has sucha huge customer base, a good portion of which likely view the Pentax pancake primes with some envy. What do we have on the Pentax side? A bunch of people eyeing the other side without really considering what we have.

[magkelly]

I honestly don't care what Canon or Nikon does. If their gear works for you, use it, with my blessing. But Canon or Nikon could make the best lens on the planet and price it at $1 and I still wouldn't trade my Pentax gear for it. My kit's value isn't based on the usefulness of one lens and if I don't like the camera it has to go on a particular lens is useless to me. I can put just about any Pentax lens from the last 50 plus years on my camera and use them. Some will AF some won't. I adjust my focusing accordingly. I have a couple of faster lenses and lots of slower lenses. Most of them work fairly well in low light but of course they work better with more light.

Duh. One of the most basic fundamentals of photography is find the light. If there's not enough of it, make more if you can. Yeah a fast lens helps a lot. But even the fastest lens on the planet won't get you an impressive shot if there just isn't enough light to begin with. No offense, but I think a lot of people these days are relying way too hard on the tech and not enough on the basics of photography, expecting miracles from the camera/lens manufacturers and their gear. I like a fast lens, who doesn't? I happen to think though that some of my slower lenses can actually be just as good and even sometimes better than some of my fastest lenses actually. Not every situation needs super fast glass and there are other things that make a lens good to use besides speed.

Spending $200 and up on lenses isn't something I can do actually, at least not often. $200 may seem like a low price point to some but that's actually a pretty major expense and a really hard decision for me to buy a lens at that price. Higher than that? I'm not likely going to get to go there. Nice if you can, but reality check, even a $200 lens is a lot of money for many people. You start talking about $400 lenses, $800 lenses, $1500 lenses and you've totally lost me. You might as well be talking about the phase of the moon for it matters to me.

Pentax makes some darned good lenses IMHO. Even the much derided 18-55 kit lens has served me pretty well so far. Maybe Canon and Nikon make some better lenses, maybe they don't. Overall I think the Pentax system is the most useful and ergonomic of the three. I think their glass (vintage and modern) is just lovely, and that's why I chose it to begin with. Given the whole legacy glass thing and they'll keep me buying Pentax bodies for years to come most likely. I actually have two legacy lenses now that are basically pancake type lenses. I like them but I wouldn't go out and spend several hundred dollars for one just to have a skinnier 40mm/50mm lens. A lens in that range is useful to me now and again but for $200-300? I'd rather grab the 55-300 instead. For me that would be getting more bang for my buck.

I will cheerfully sacrifice a thinner lens for more range. 40mm just isn't that much different from 50mm to me. It's not wide enough to really get the wide angle shots. It's not wide enough really for landscapes and such. It's not really long enough to get portrait shots as I like them. I know some people use a wide angle for that but I don't. I don't like the look of portraits done with a true wide angle. They're touting this 40mm lens for portraits but that's not even in the range I really like to use for that most of the time. I can and do use a 50mm for it but I much prefer a lens in the 70mm-150mm range for portraits. The 85MM AF lens? I actually covet that like mad, but that's just not a lens I can see myself affording anytime soon. I'd buy that a lot faster than a 40mm though.

I do have one older 35mm if I really need to go there but I don't expect I will use it a heck of a lot on my DSLR. I'm glad to have it to play with but about the only thing I can see that a 40mm pancake would be a really good idea for is discreet street shooting. Better than a 50? That's debatable but to each his or her own preference I suppose. I'm still far more likely to put one of my 50mm's on there for what this lens is advertised as being useful for though. 40mm prime? It's one of those lenses I wouldn't mind having if I really had a lot of money to spend on glass but that I just don't consider a "must" for my kit most of the time.

[mecrox]

Good to see so many folks on here doing their job since there is no difference at all between the complainers and those who complain about the complainers who complain. Both sides have something to complain about, it appears, though it's tempting to complain that the complainers have nothing to complain about and therefore that the complainers who complain about the complainers who complain also have nothing to complain about. For myself, I am grateful to the complainers for doing all my complaining for me. In fact, it there weren't doing their job I would be tempted to complain myself that the complainers are failing to make a proper job of complaining. It's an important job, too, because if they complainers didn't complain then the complainers who complain that the complainers have nothing to complain about would no longer be able to complain about the complainers who have nothing to complain about and the result could be a gigantic supernova explosion which would leave both parties with a very great deal to complain about except that by that stage there would be no one left to complain and nothing left to complain about and no complainers who could complain or not complain about no complainers with nothing left not to complain about. Welcome to Pentax Forums. Have a nice day.