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07-05-2012, 01:05 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Neo_ Quote
Sure but I'm talking about a service camera for replacement, fast tracks for pros and things like that, why would you want a FF camera in your line? To me it sounds like having an Audi A8 or bmw series 7 in the catalogue.
Sure Nikon CLS is expensive but how many people are willing to fork out the bucks for a FF body? not me for sure, I'm more than happy with my k5, it still outperforms me and no I don't have that kind of money to invest in something that will not make me a better photographer.

Even answering to the original post, I still don't see it realistic or a smart move, Canon and Nikon are struggling to keep it alive just because they don't want to get in the mirrorless arena with everyone else, better to be a duopoly till it lasts.
IMHO
You do make a good point about Nikon and Canon. They are big fish in a pond that is shrinking. That pond is the pool of professional photographers who have the cash flow to afford frequent "upgrades" of very expensive equipment, particularly when the output quality of that equipment already exceeds the requirements of the vast majority of clients. All DSLR builders are caught in a squeeze between that and the fact that most consumers are happy with cell phones and smaller digital cameras.

I think the long-term market for higher end digital cameras will be largely dependent on enthusiasts and on artists who require high quality but can't afford to constantly pay for new frills that they don't need. (That's me.)

In that context, I think Pentax would be wise to focus its attention on a product line that emphasizes quality, durability and excellent service to all customers, not just commercial professionals. Market cameras and lenses as serious instruments built for the long run, not shiny toys for the magpie types. Support cameras for 20 years, not 20 months. Develop a business model that profits from keeping cameras working, rather than viewing service as a nuisance. Pentax is not so far from that now. They're building some solid products, both bodies and lenses. They just need to develop a core philosophy, and provide the support to promote and implement that philosopy. I think many people, particularly those of us with some environmental awareness, would be very supportive of a company that builds for the long haul.

I've no idea whether full frame would be part of that picture. My personal view is that it should, as it offers greater potential for both long-term incremental improvements and back-compatibility than does APS-C.

I also think Pentax/Ricoh would be smart to build on the modular camera approach Ricoh has pioneered, geared toward cameras that are both compatible with a wide variety of legacy lenses as well as newer ones, and suited for systematic upgrades without wholesale replacement.

John

07-05-2012, 01:09 PM   #47
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My issue with Pentax right now is not glass selection or sensor size -- it's the god awful AF.

I've decided to offload my gear and go for a D800 with 24-70, 24G and 85G in the next six months.

My last job in a dark theater was much harder than it could have been were it not for bad bad AF speed and low-light focusing issues. I shouldn't have to deal with this shit when I have 2500$ worth of gear in my hand. If it were a 300$ P&S I'd understand, but not this.
07-05-2012, 01:10 PM   #48
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Look at the Fuji digital rangefinder; costs how much and then there are so few lens' available.

Even if Pentax had 3-5 lens' for a full frame when released; that would be a good start; but also naturally one that would have ot be expanded upon
07-05-2012, 01:10 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
yep a lens based on a $5500 lens is just what wen need in K mount
If Pentax did it right, the general FF market would be a lot bigger
than the specialized market for prosumer landscape MF
on a CCD sensor from a bankrupt company,
so the economies of scale should make it a $2500 lens without tilt-shift.
They could then charge $3500 for a tilt-shift version.

The manual Schneider TS lenses are in the $3000 range.

07-05-2012, 01:13 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by FrancisK7 Quote
My issue with Pentax right now is not glass selection or sensor size -- it's the god awful AF.
I've never had AF problems with my Nokton!
07-05-2012, 01:26 PM   #51
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I'm testing out a Nikon D7000 + 85mm f/1.8 right now, and I'm having trouble getting it to focus the way I'd like it to. I'm guessing a lot of it is just unfamiliarity but I really expected things to be plug-and-play.
07-05-2012, 01:29 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
If Pentax needed a decent wide prime for FF in a hurry,
they could probably work up a K-mount version
of the 25mm lenses they currently offer for the 645 format.

Could even build in some tilt/shift capability.
They have the FA 31/1.8 LTD and the FA 35/2 is still available along with its baby sister the DA 35/2.4 AL. It wouldn't be hard for Pentax to get some lenses out given they have some of the best optical formulae created for 135 system. It wouldn't be too hard for them to updated the FA 20/2.8. They could put it in a better barrel and give it Ghostless Coating and SP or Aero Bright.

It did pretty good in the review on the K10d.

http://www.photozone.de/pentax/119-pentax-smc-fa-20mm-f28-review--test-report

Last edited by Blue; 07-05-2012 at 01:41 PM.
07-05-2012, 01:29 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
they could quite easily revamp the FA*24 F2 and get it out I would think
However adequate the FA 24 might have been on film,
it seems to struggle to deliver digital border resolution on 10MP APS-C, let alone FF:

Pentax SMC-FA* 24mm f/2 AL [IF] - Review / Lab Test Report - Analysis

07-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
However adequate the FA 24 might have been on film,
it seems to struggle to deliver digital border resolution on 10MP APS-C, let alone FF:

Pentax SMC-FA* 24mm f/2 AL [IF] - Review / Lab Test Report - Analysis

The text of some of the review:

QuoteQuote:
Pentax users may be aware of Bojidar Dimitrov website where he mentions that the user feelings about this lens are a bit mixed. Well, I can certainly concur here. The FA* 24mm f/2 produced a fairly similar resolution characteristic like the recently tested Sigma AF 30mm f/1.4 EX DC. The Pentax lens has a very sharp center performance straight from f/2. However, the border quality is fairly dismal here. This doesn't really change till about f/4 where the border resolution finally reaches good levels. The center resolution peaks at f/5.6 with absolutely superb figures whereas the borders require f/8 to reach very good quality.
It is worth to mention that the lens seems to produce a very high degree of contrast even at f/2. "Sharpness" is a combination of resolution and contrast so subjectively the image results may appear better than suggested by the graphs - probably one of the reasons for the varying user impressions out there.
The FA 20/2.8 had pretty good reveiw on the same sensor they tested the FA* 24 on.

http://www.photozone.de/pentax/119-pentax-smc-fa-20mm-f28-review--test-report
07-05-2012, 01:54 PM   #55
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The FA 24's contrast might have been an advantage on slide film, but doesn't mean much on digital.
07-05-2012, 02:01 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
Look at the Fuji digital rangefinder; costs how much and then there are so few lens' available.

Even if Pentax had 3-5 lens' for a full frame when released; that would be a good start; but also naturally one that would have ot be expanded upon
Different kind of market, most people that buy an FF will do so because they earn a bit with photography so they have different demands, you can not expect they will chose for Pentax with 5 lenses available over nikon or canon with over 20 lenses. So they either need a good launch line with lenses or try to find a market for themselves and not compete with nikon and canon directly.
07-05-2012, 02:05 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by weave2d2 Quote
I personally feel a strategy of doubling down on the aps-c category might be very smart, as the sensor quality steadily improves and the advantages of full frame are mitigated (though never eliminated probably.)
the only advantage being mitigated is the price advantage previously enjoyed by APSC, there has been no reduction in the relative performance gap between the 2 formats nor will there be.
07-05-2012, 02:17 PM   #58
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Hi Twitch,
due to sensor size and necessary lens coverages we can always assume that an aps-c camera package will come in smaller and cheaper, no? And I guess I'm making one big assumption, which is when our K-whatever aps-c camera improves by 2 or 3 stops over current performance levels (so 1600 is the new 200) and the files are ridiculously large, that many of us will finally say "good enough," and be completely unwilling to pay thousands for the FF upgrade. That last sentence could possibly be the most laughable thing I"ve ever written
07-05-2012, 02:24 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
The FA 24's contrast might have been an advantage on slide film, but doesn't mean much on digital.
That wasn't the complete point. However, fixing contrast in pp is an advantage, but the better the image one starts with the better of one is. Other wise, everyone would be using filter glass for lenses.

sarcasm
07-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Different kind of market, most people that buy an FF will do so because they earn a bit with photography so they have different demands, you can not expect they will chose for Pentax with 5 lenses available over nikon or canon with over 20 lenses. So they either need a good launch line with lenses or try to find a market for themselves and not compete with nikon and canon directly.
I doubt it's the case that most FF buyers earn anything from their photography - I know several Canon owners in this small corner of the Earth who use the 5DII and don't earn anything from it. The number of lenses available also may not be a consideration - it should be the number they can reasonably afford, but human nature being what it is, no doubt there is a glow to be had from association, if not ownership!

Like others here, I'd buy a 35FF Pentax for the bigger viewfinder alone, but only if it was priced reasonably (subjective, I know, but I don't want to commit myself too precisely until I see what's on offer) and only if it was not much bigger than the K-5. The D800 looks to be a marvelous device, but the size and weight is prohibitive to me, especially after recently carting a K-5 and a bag full of lenses around Europe for 3 weeks.
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