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07-06-2012, 05:08 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I tried my DA*60-250 on my Program Plus, it's full frame at 90 mm, at other focal lengths , not so much.
According to the "DA lens on Full Frame: Test Shots" thread the 60-250 gets two stars, i.e., is "usable at full aperture with a small loss in corner IQ only". It is a preliminary rating but other tests by falconeye confirmed that it appears to be very usable on full frame.

W.r.t. to the OP: I have more full-frame lenses than APS-C specialists and would get a Pentax FF in a heartbeat. I'm sure Pentax would add some FF lenses to the lineup if they launched an FF camera, but independently of that, there are sufficiently many used full-frame K-mount and/or full-frame lenses from third-party manufacturers around already.


Last edited by Class A; 07-06-2012 at 06:26 AM.
07-06-2012, 05:13 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
If Pentax did it right, the general FF market would be a lot bigger
than the specialized market for prosumer landscape MF
on a CCD sensor from a bankrupt company,
so the economies of scale should make it a $2500 lens without tilt-shift.
They could then charge $3500 for a tilt-shift version.

The manual Schneider TS lenses are in the $3000 range.
you realise of course that the 645D sensor is not from a bankrupt company. the division was sold long before Kodak went into bankruptcy. But that sensor is end of life now so I imagine decisions are being made on the next gen sensor. Medium format has always been a different game, and because of the high prices (caused by low production volume) it can still be quite profitable. the 645D changed the landscape (no pun intended) of the MF market and doubled the market size.
They could do Tilt shift for less than that buy reworking the 28 tilt shift design. but it needs a FF sensor (so would 25 for that matter) for the crop sensor you need 18 or so (like the canon for instance)
All that being said Tilt shift is a very small specialized market that makes the 645 market look big
07-06-2012, 06:02 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you realise of course that the 645D sensor is not from a bankrupt company. the division was sold long before Kodak went into bankruptcy.
Sure, but the development work and initial production for that sensor were done under Kodak,
and Leica now seem concerned enough about its use in the S for them to be seeking alternatives:

Rumor: Leica S3 with new sensor at Photokina | Leica News & Rumors
07-06-2012, 06:07 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Yes and 20mm is even more wide angle on medium format camera, i just dont see the point?
At 25, there is probably a lot you don't see the point of. I never mentioned medium format because I was clearly comparing full frame (135) and aps-c. But 20mm is even wider on large format. However, I am not aware of a 20mm for Pentax 6x7 and the FA 25/4 is the widest on the smaller format 645 and even smaller 645D. Medium format fits a different niche whether it is film or digital.

Edit: On another note, the 645D is ~ $10,000 body and the FA 25/4 is ~ $5000, and it has a crop sensor and not the same size as a 645 negative. Plus, it is relatively large body whether digital or film. The MZ-S or MZ-3 with a FA 20/2.8 aren't very large.


Last edited by Blue; 07-06-2012 at 06:32 AM.
07-06-2012, 06:20 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
They could do Tilt shift for less than that buy reworking the 28 tilt shift design. but it needs a FF sensor (so would 25 for that matter)
Right. The point for this thread was that Pentax already have modern 25mm lens designs
that could be used both for regular FF, and as part of a tilt-shift mount covering FF,
since they cover the 645 format, digital and film.
07-06-2012, 06:23 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Edit: On another note, the 645D is ~ $10,000 body and the FA 25/4 is ~ $5000 and it is a crop sensor and not the same size as a 645 negative.
From

SMC Pentax-D FA 645 25mm F4 AL [IF] SDM AW Reviews - 645 Wide-Angle Primes - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

"Its image circle is big enough for use with current Pentax 645 film bodies."
07-06-2012, 06:31 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
From

SMC Pentax-D FA 645 25mm F4 AL [IF] SDM AW Reviews - 645 Wide-Angle Primes - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

"Its image circle is big enough for use with current Pentax 645 film bodies."
Show me where I said the FA 25/4 couldn't be used on film. What I said was the sensor in the 645D wasn't the same size as the negative. That means the FA 25 will have a wider FOV on the film body. The intent was to compare the size of the 645D sensor to the 135 sensor. You conveniently edited out the part about the 135 film bodies being compact systems which took that out of context. No where in there did I discuss image circle by any lens.
07-06-2012, 06:59 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
At 25, there is probably a lot you don't see the point of. I never mentioned medium format because I was clearly comparing full frame (135) and aps-c. But 20mm is even wider on large format. However, I am not aware of a 20mm for Pentax 6x7 and the FA 25/4 is the widest on the smaller format 645 and even smaller 645D. Medium format fits a different niche whether it is film or digital.
Who cares?

Like i said i don't see anything significant of 20mm being wide angle for 135 format, is that special or something?

07-06-2012, 07:18 AM   #99
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Concerning the number of non-professional photographers who might switch from Pentax aps-c to Pentax full-frame, I bet there would be quite a few thousand worldwide. I worked in the bicycle industry for a long time, in high-end accessories, and I was continually shocked by the sales volumes of $5,000-$10,000 bikes, purchased by those who would never race as amateurs, let alone professionals. I think that's fine (though not in my means) and would assume the camera market and customers are often similar. Whether 10,000 units of Pentax FF and the associated lens sales is even significant I'm not sure. Probably not.
07-06-2012, 07:42 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by weave2d2 Quote
Concerning the number of non-professional photographers who might switch from Pentax aps-c to Pentax full-frame, I bet there would be quite a few thousand worldwide. I worked in the bicycle industry for a long time, in high-end accessories, and I was continually shocked by the sales volumes of $5,000-$10,000 bikes, purchased by those who would never race as amateurs, let alone professionals. I think that's fine (though not in my means) and would assume the camera market and customers are often similar. Whether 10,000 units of Pentax FF and the associated lens sales is even significant I'm not sure. Probably not.
Yes, it IS fine that non-pro's and even complete photography-newbies purchase such gear. Because if only the skilled pro's were allowed to purchase such cameras, then the market would be to small to be of any interest. In other words, the profit made from people who are outskilled by their cameras enables their developement and production.
07-06-2012, 09:21 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Yes, it IS fine that non-pro's and even complete photography-newbies purchase such gear. Because if only the skilled pro's were allowed to purchase such cameras, then the market would be to small to be of any interest. In other words, the profit made from people who are outskilled by their cameras enables their developement and production.
it's not just fine the market relies on it. Leica would be out of business if it weren't for people with more money than talent
(edit I should have been a dentist )
07-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Who cares?

Like i said i don't see anything significant of 20mm being wide angle for 135 format, is that special or something?
This kind of nonsense is why you have been on my ignore list for sometime. 135 = full frame. The people that bought the FA 20/2.8 or FA* 24/2 probably cared or they wouldn't have bought it. Furthermore, did you ever wonder why the DA 15 LTD is popular on our aps-c system and to some folks the DA 14/2.8?
07-06-2012, 09:44 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
This kind of nonsense is why you have been on my ignore list for sometime. 135 = full frame. The people that bought the FA 20/2.8 or FA* 24/2 probably cared or they wouldn't have bought it. Furthermore, did you ever wonder why the DA 15 LTD is popular on our aps-c system and to some folks the DA 14/2.8?
ANVH want Pentax to make a Pentax NEX Blue, I doubt he was ever a serious film (ie 35mm) shooter. I bought the mentioned 14 2.8 the day I bought my ds specifically because i understood i couldn't get the FOV of a 20/21 without it. Anyone who grew up holding cameras in front of their face at arms length seems to struggle with why anyone would want a big OVF and FF, Spend a month or 2 with an Mx, the M20 f4 m28 f2, m50 f1.4 m85 F2 and you will get it completely
the one area i like live view is macro and shooting night scenes on a tripod, for anything else give me a good OVF. (Even the best EVF at the moment doesn't come close and i've tried pretty much all of them)
07-06-2012, 09:54 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
for anything else give me a good OVF.

A long time ago, real photographers scorned viewfinders.
They would stare at a screen on the back of the camera.
07-06-2012, 09:58 AM   #105
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Is FF absolutely necessary though when MP's are now running in the double digits? I mean if you have a higher MP camera doesn't that compensate a lot for it not being FF? I would think so. Honestly I don't notice a lot of difference between my film and my digital work. I have a slightly bigger field of view with my film cameras I think, but it's really not a whole lot different. I can't even imagine needing a FF camera unless I was in the business of taking pics for large billboards or something. Using my 35mm SLR's I usually scan the negative and end up cropping a bit anyway. So what's the difference really?
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