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07-16-2012, 06:29 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
I am not going to spend the next 15 minutes disproving your attempts to disprove hypothetical situations (are you serious? really?) that neither of us can actually conclude are factual or not - that wasn't the purpose of me stating them. Rather, this is a terrible assumption to make: "If I am so informed, and I get cheated, it's my fault that I have no choice but to accept, and everyone else should share the same fate."

What if the first time she ever used a computer was to make an eBay account, and it took her 2 hours just to figure out how to upload one picture of her item? Most of us are gifted with a navigation of the internet so seamless and un-mentally taxing that it is very difficult to understand how anyone else "could be so uninformed when the entire world is at your fingertips thanks to 0.01 second searches on Google." I personally can attest that my grandmother is technologically-challenged, and despite showing her countless times, she still calls me on Skype while in Afghanistan on how to upload pictures to FaceBook. Not only would I never expect her to know what an alphabet-soup-named lens is and the distinction between 1:2 and 1:1.2, but I wouldn't expect her to research it prior to selling one either, because to her, it's old, unwanted, and inherited "junk," and $25 is better than throwing it away.

Ultimately I'm disturbed by your egocentric attribution of your own internet and computer prowess and unforgiving omniscience to someone whom you have never met as a justification for your own set of standards of morality and ethics.

Very Respectfully,
Heie
It's the responsibility of the seller to set the price of the item of the item they are selling, if you don't like it as a buyer you haggle down the price or walk away. In order to be cheated you need to be deceived or lied to in some way (such as the seller telling you there is mold in the lens when there not, or its a fake). If you look at the original post my arguments are based on the information that the topic creator gave us, unlike you I am not making up hypothetical situations.

07-16-2012, 07:06 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Whitewind Quote
In order to be cheated you need to be deceived or lied to in some way
Knowing the true value of an item and allowing the item to be sold to you for fractions of the cost is a form of deception to me.

If it's a major retailer, it's a non-issue. But a private, most-likely uninformed vendor? To me, it would be deception. Not necessarily active or intentional deception, but deception nonetheless.

And you need to consider the hypotheticals. Anything less is a neglect for critical thinking and proper analysis of any given situation, and I refuse to compromise that.

-Heie
07-16-2012, 07:44 AM   #33
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Agreed -- looking up the true value of a lens or camera for someone that doesn't know lenses or cameras is not easy -- just look at all the wildly OVERPRICED stuff that the ignorant people also think is fair because "they saw it on ebay" or whatever. I tell those people to lower their prices just as I sometimes tell others they should raise theirs. If the seller is a professional or active seller and just doesn't know about everything they have (like the people that buy everything they can from estate sales and then throw it up on ebay) or if they can't even describe the condition of the item properly (even when questioned and told what to look for -- often they will just refuse to answer) then I'm certainly not going to tell them to raise their prices -- basically anything on ebay will find the proper price given the circumstances 99% of the time. But something on Craigslist where the poor person is obviously screwing themselves out of a significant amount of money -- yeah, I'll tell them but still try to get a good deal in the process. Most of the time if I see something at an antique mall or garage sale I won't know the value either, not really, but I just suspect it is worth something. For that, I'll just grab it and look it up later. Sometimes I am wrong and I get burned. Other times I get something worth $200 for $10.

I think the cold rationalists among us think there is no upside to letting people know about these things, or doing something for no other reason than it is nice. That "good karma" is not worth anything. But I can tell you that I've actually made a lot of MONEY just by going out of my way to be helpful, helping somebody for free if it within my area of expertise, etc. (Not just letting people know about the value of their stuff -- anything at all.) People appreciate that stuff and remember it -- I've had lots of work brought to me or been alerted to more good deals by people I've helped out in the past and would have had no interaction with them if I hadn't. So while I don't let myself be a carpet mat for people to walk all over, it is my general policy to spread good will without expectation of immediate gain. It generally leads to good things happening that could not have been predicted.
07-16-2012, 08:25 AM   #34
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In the end it all comes down to who's doing the selling, how likely they are to be informed on whatever they are selling, whether or not they seem like a decent person, and honestly how bad you want it. I'm not up for ripping off nice old people. I've more than once stopped someone like that from selling something at too low a price. On the other hand I cheerfully paid $30 once for a doll that was worth at least $75 to buy it from a guy locally who was a complete jerk to me throughout the whole transaction. Over the course of a week via a lot of emails and pics I helped that guy ID a huge collection of dolls outfits and dolls. I connected him with some local people who bought doll stuff, probably made him $500 more than he would have ever gotten on his own by letting him know what he actually had. The whole time he drove me about nuts with questions and demands on my time. But I was being nice and I didn't want to see him get ripped off regardless.

We had an appt to meet. He'd set a pretty fair price on some of the dolls that I collected. $30 per doll. He'd sold a lot but a few of them he just hadn't quite managed to sell to my people. He would likely Ebay the rest that weekend if he couldn't sell them locally but I could tell he didn't really want to go there. I actually get there and he ups the price considerably and tells me that if I want any of them that I'll have to buy the whole lot and I'll have to pay such and such a price. Tallied it in my head and I'd have been paying $50 per doll at least for half a dozen dolls. In other words if I wanted to buy anything I'd have to take it all, pay more, and save him the auction fees. He was a total arse about it.

Honestly? The amount of work I did on his behalf, research, setting up meetings with people I knew, it was considerable. He should have given me a doll as a "thanks" or at the very least offered the it at a substantial discount. The price he originally set for them was mostly fair but a little bit low on one doll that I really wanted. As things went on and he got more and more difficult to deal with I deliberately did not tell him everything I knew about the one doll that I wanted, completely played down my interest. He had no idea going to that meeting that there was one doll I favored above the others or why.

When he pulled the price switch buy the whole lot or else thing on me I told him to forget it, Ebay them, and prepared to walk. He panicked and then offered me any doll of my choice for $30 rather than lose the possibility of making any money that day. He also had another meet up with a woman I knew on some of the other 50's dolls dolls he had that I didn't collect and I think he belatedly realized it was unlikely that she would buy anything from him if I walked away unhappy. I sat there for a good minute, thinking, weighing my options, deciding whether or not I should tell him after all that that one doll could go for a lot more than $30 and in the end I just bought it and left not saying a word.

The next night he emails me trying to sell me the rest for $30 a pop after all and of course I tell him to forget it. I will admit that I could have told him more about that doll, been more honest. But I'm not a saint and I just don't think I should have rewarded him for trying to shark me. Going in I'd thought about it, just taking a less pricey doll and letting him know, and that despite the trouble he gave me, but then he pulled that stunt and all my good will towards him went straight out the window. Does my conscience bother me every now and again? A bit, but then I look at my doll and I think about what he tried to pull and you know I don't feel THAT bad.

07-16-2012, 08:33 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
The next night he emails me trying to sell me the rest for $30 a pop after all and of course I tell him to forget it. I will admit that I could have told him more about that doll, been more honest. But I'm not a saint and I just don't think I should have rewarded him for trying to shark me. Going in I'd thought about it, just taking a less pricey doll and letting him know, and that despite the trouble he gave me, but then he pulled that stunt and all my good will towards him went straight out the window. Does my conscience bother me every now and again? A bit, but then I look at my doll and I think about what he tried to pull and you know I don't feel THAT bad.
The only thing you should feel bad about is that you didn't offer him even less for it. If the guy is trying to chisel you after you helped him? Forget it...
07-16-2012, 08:49 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
Knowing the true value of an item and allowing the item to be sold to you for fractions of the cost is a form of deception to me.

If it's a major retailer, it's a non-issue. But a private, most-likely uninformed vendor? To me, it would be deception. Not necessarily active or intentional deception, but deception nonetheless.

And you need to consider the hypotheticals. Anything less is a neglect for critical thinking and proper analysis of any given situation, and I refuse to compromise that.

-Heie
Deception itself is intentionally managing verbal and/or nonverbal messages so that the message receiver will believe in a way that the message sender knows is false, unless you can argue how the "I'll buy that" displays this I don't see your argument. The original poster even asked for clarification, which would prompt most intelligent people to do a little research or be a little suspicious that the item there selling is not the right price.

In addition it unfair to impose a set double standard on retailers (corporations) and individual people.
07-16-2012, 08:55 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Whitewind Quote
Deception itself is intentionally managing verbal and/or nonverbal messages so that the message receiver will believe in a way that the message sender knows is false, unless you can argue how the "I'll buy that" displays this I don't see your argument.
I do see his argument, and I don't buy yours.

QuoteQuote:
The original poster even asked for clarification, which would prompt most intelligent people to do a little research or be a little suspicious that the item there selling is not the right price.
Maybe, but good luck in them finding out that "1.2" is the decisive factor if they have no idea.

QuoteQuote:
In addition it unfair to impose a set double standard on retailers (corporations) and individual people.
No it isn't. If you find the morality of others arbitrary, yours is too just as much. We all choose our own, one way or another.
07-16-2012, 11:04 AM   #38
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@magkelly Off topic, but I notice you use the word "arse" rather than "ass". Are you by any chance an expat Brit?

@Heie I'm not a Christian, but "do as you would be done by" is as good a rule as any to follow. I'd probably put it in utilitarian terms (maximum happiness, etc.) but I'm possibly a bit of a windbag.

07-17-2012, 02:35 AM   #39
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Well if the responses to this thread are any indication of what the marketplace is like then my future dealings should go smoothly and uneventfully. Unlike my eBay adventures the worse of which was a seller who insisted that Hawaii wasn't a part of the 50 States (he got banned and I ended up suing the guy over breach of contract, it was a big ticket item). Just goes to show you never know who has legal training.
07-17-2012, 03:30 AM   #40
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Wow, lots of saints here! Well I hope you guys appreciate honesty, because that's all I've got going now: I would order that lens for that low asking price. Maybe I would even try to negotiate an even lower price too! Because, who am I to question someone elses intelligence? Maybe they just want to get rid of their item ASAP?
07-17-2012, 03:35 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Whitewind Quote
Well if the responses to this thread are any indication of what the marketplace is like then my future dealings should go smoothly and uneventfully. Unlike my eBay adventures the worse of which was a seller who insisted that Hawaii wasn't a part of the 50 States (he got banned and I ended up suing the guy over breach of contract, it was a big ticket item). Just goes to show you never know who has legal training.
While I can't speak for the entire PF MarketPlace community, I can speak for myself, and those that I've shared transactions with (which you can find via my marketplace feedback). I have never, not once, had an issue with any transaction here, to include several requests to pay extra special attention to packaging as the shipping would take them to Afghanistan where I am now - and this is for rather expensive lenses - the DA* 55 f/1.4 and the Sigma 30 f/1.4. I have sold items as well, and never once had any issues with receiving payment. Communication has always been spectacular, and never an issue.


Regarding myself, I sold my DA 12-24 prior to deployment. I was packing the lens and as I was putting it in the box, I fumbled it and dropped it on the floor (I felt like such an idiot). After my initial panic attack was over, I tested the lens and found that there was no adverse affects on any of the lens elements, and the focus ring was still buttery smooth, including with 100% functioning AF. The zoom, on the other hand, I noticed something was off. At around the 21mm mark, there was a slight "hump" or friction point that was noticeable, but did not affect the overall use of the lens - it just required a tad bit (seriously very minor) more pressure to continue through the zoom range in both directions.

I would be lying if I said I didn't contemplate just putting it in the box and sending it (I'm still human), but I couldn't allow myself to do it. It would have been very easy too, because in a weeks (well before he would have received the package since I was in Germany and he was in the Western U.S.), I would be in Afghanistan, it would be a huge pain in the ass to undo the transaction, and another motivation for me to get rid of the lens was I had replaced it with my Sigma 8-16 and DA* 16-50 combo (much, much better and more versatile), and I had no desire to bring it on my deployment. So I emailed the intended recipient (whom had already sent me the payment in full), and told him what happened, that how despite testing the lens and finding not a single fault other than the slightly pinched zoom ring @ 21mm, I told him that I would immediately honor a request for a full refund should he no longer be 100% comfortable with the transaction, and without any questions. He appreciably accepted the refund.

I found another buyer that was willing to buy the lens for a bit of a discount from what I originally had received from the first buyer, despite knowing what had happened, which I told him immediately about when he expressed interest.

I lost $100 (because like I said, it would have been too easy to sell it and blame it on the shipping, and then disappear into a hassle of "I'm currently deployed to Afghanistan," but my conscious was clear, and I knew I had done the right thing. Most importantly, however, (and this is what I use as my personal litmus test to judge the "justness" of a certain situation), had I been on the receiving end of the transaction, I would have been 100% comfortable with the level of transparency and honesty to make an informed decision, never having felt cheated, mislead, or deceived.

-Heie
07-17-2012, 05:50 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Wow, lots of saints here! Well I hope you guys appreciate honesty, because that's all I've got going now: I would order that lens for that low asking price. Maybe I would even try to negotiate an even lower price too! Because, who am I to question someone elses intelligence? Maybe they just want to get rid of their item ASAP?
Not questioning, or insulting, their intelligence - just questioning how informed they are in arriving at their pricing. I've asked people why something was priced so low, didn't they know it was worth more, before and gotten various answers from "Really!?!" to "That's fine but we just want to get rid of it." In the former case I pointed them to where they could get more information, in the later I bought it. Only takes a minute to be considerate of others. Perhaps I am a fool, but then I try to let managers know about excellent service since I'm just as quick as anyone to complain about poor service or treatment.
07-17-2012, 05:54 AM   #43
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If I ask the PF community how much I should sell an FA31 that I found, I'm pretty sure I will receive a reasonable appraisal.

If I post it in the PF marketplace for $75, I'm pretty sure that at least some of you would still let me know it's underpriced or that I forgot a zero, while some might rush to be the first to quitely PM me to buy it for themselves.

It is easy to do the right thing when everyone is watching. What we do when nobody is watching helps define who we really are, and the kind of society we live in.
07-17-2012, 06:37 AM   #44
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Let me add a twist:

An ebay seller that initiates with a starting bid of $1,-. And ending up selling his item for $5,-, whilst the true value of his item would more likely be around $200,-?

This is widely accepted as 'being lucky', whilst it's not THAT different from the OP's case.
07-17-2012, 06:47 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Let me add a twist:

An ebay seller that initiates with a starting bid of $1,-. And ending up selling his item for $5,-, whilst the true value of his item would more likely be around $200,-?

This is widely accepted as 'being lucky', whilst it's not THAT different from the OP's case.
Comes down to how knowledgeable, or presumably informed, the seller is when they make that decision. Sometimes, from what I gather from eBay materials, it will result in a higher final sale price if you start a no reserve auction at $1 rather than somewhere close to the fair market value. When a company makes that decision they are gambling that they will make more money. Sometimes gambles do not pay off. In that case I would not hesitate to bid on the lower end. I've actually been in that situation as both the seller and the buyer. As a seller it did not work out for me, and neither did it as the buyer come to think about it
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