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08-10-2012, 09:20 AM   #31
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Sellers need nannies?

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The Marketplace doesn't need nanny's weighing in to pretect us from ourselves, as if they know better then us what prices we should pay for used lenses.
.
Using your logic, it's the sellers that need the nannies?

Perhaps I just don't like any allusion to '1 way speech' - especially as it relates to commerce.

08-10-2012, 09:48 AM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
Agreed. However, would you agree with a rule prohibiting you from telling someone else that there was a place next door selling it for 20% cheaper?
We have that rule right now and it has worked well since the inception of the Marketplace. I agree with that rule as you state it.

I have no need to insert myself into my neighbor's spending decisions. I have enough on my hands inserting myself into my wife's spending decisions.

QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
Using your logic, it's the sellers that need the nannies?

Perhaps I just don't like any allusion to '1 way speech' - especially as it relates to commerce.
You are free to communicate with the seller privately. You are also free to go elsewhere.

The Marketplace is not "Commerce." This is not a public Forum. It is privately owned by a private person who sets the rules according to his own agenda and desires.

Joined August, 2012. Wants to change the rules already. I'm calling troll right here, right now.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-10-2012 at 09:53 AM.
08-10-2012, 09:50 AM   #33
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If someone isn't wise enough to compare the prices everywhere, including other places on the forum, it is their fault. I will hit all the big dealers, CL, eBay, historic prices here, and then decide if I want to make an offer. Sometimes I am turned down, sometimes I buy. It's the same with pretty much any used items. If you don't take the time to do your research then it's your fault and no one else's. It's all about personal responsibility.

Also, using your logic, if someone were to list an item too low then shouldn't the forum force them to raise their prices?
08-10-2012, 10:00 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
Also, using your logic, if someone were to list an item too low then shouldn't the forum force them to raise their prices?
Firstly, it's not about 'forcing' anyone to raise or lower the price. It's simply whether one can make a comment on the price.

As to comments that positively comment on the price. That's already done (against the rules?) and I completely agree with it. I've seen numerous mentions of 'that's a great price', 'won't last long'. I appreciate those comments. When I see a price type of comment on a lens I'm interested in, I seize on it and look at the user's lens portfolio and look at their other postings to try get an idea of where they are coming from with that comment.

As a Pentax newbie, I don't know what all the great lenses are by the traditional metrics of build, optics, and value. As such, I appreciate seeing every type of comment. The more info I can get, the more likely I am to frequent the marketplace.


Last edited by dmytty; 08-10-2012 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Correction
08-10-2012, 10:02 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
As a Pentax newbie, I don't know what all the great lenses are by the traditional metrics of build, optics, and value. As such, I appreciate seeing every type of comment. The more info I can get, the more likely I am to frequent the marketplace.
The less the seller has to worry about being harassed for trying to sell something, the more likely it will be that there will be items for sale there when you come to look at it.
08-10-2012, 10:20 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We have that rule right now and it has worked well since the inception of the Marketplace. I agree with that rule as you state it.
So no comments at all on price? They surely are there, I'm merely wondering about whether the rules actually serve the needs of the buyer - which is ultimately will determine the success of the marketplace.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I have no need to insert myself into my neighbor's spending decisions. I have enough on my hands inserting myself into my wife's spending decisions.
I'm merely making the point that as a potential buyer I would appreciate advice - whether it be positive, neutral, or negative. If advice is 'inserting one's opinion into another person's decision', I'm all for open communications and getting advice. Please leave it to me the buyer as to what types of advice I may receive.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You are free to communicate with the seller privately. You are also free to go elsewhere.
So we can all just email each other. The point of a forum is to freely share information with a wide audience. I contend that pricing information is amongst the most valuable information.

Going forward, I can anticipate that I'll spend significant amounts on lenses. So long as the Pentax marketplace is an efficient market (ie information is easily obtained), I will buy there - especially the legacy lenses that are discontinued and thus not available new. As such, I'm simply stating that as a potential buyer, this is what I would like to see. Why exactly would that warrant an invitation to leave?

Are you only interested in rules that serve sellers needs, rather than buyers as well? I have argued that ultimately the seller is not very well off in such a marketplace.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The Marketplace is not "Commerce." This is not a public Forum. It is privately owned by a private person who sets the rules according to his own agenda and desires.
The marketplace is 'commerce' by the textbook or layman's definition. As to it being private, I think the owner benefits by listening to different viewpoints.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Joined August, 2012. Wants to change the rules already. I'm calling troll right here, right now.
Troll? Perhaps not.

Wants to change the rules simply because I'm a new Pentax user trying to buy legacy lenses and don't like a rule that restricts the type of advice I can receive from past/current lens owners.
08-10-2012, 10:27 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
So no comments at all on price? They surely are there, I'm merely wondering about whether the rules actually serve the needs of the buyer - which is ultimately will determine the success of the marketplace.
I'd say it has been a success so far. I've bought from here.
08-10-2012, 10:30 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I've never really gotten the prices here and on CL sometimes. You'll have the same camera and the same lens and there can be a very wide variance on what people seem to think their gear is worth. The price on the K1000's I see for instance vary so widely that I really don't know what to ask for mine. You see people selling them for $30 and people asking $200 for them and it's the exact same darned kit. I expect a price bump if the camera has been CLA'd but half the time that's not the case. Someone just lists their K1000 for $200 and expects it to go for that. Yeah the lens is worth $50 blah, blah, except it's really not because the F2 50mm and the K1000 are about as common as dirt and you can't hardly give one away unless it's pristine and still boxed. It's all about what the used market will bear I guess but sometimes what people ask just isn't very realistic.
What's the danger in you sharing that type of comment? It's exactly the kind of thing that someone considering a bargain Pentax purchase might appreciate to give them confidence that they're looking for the right kind of product.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I tend to just ignore the stuff I can't afford but I don't get all huffy about it. People can ask what they like.
I think it's the seller's getting all kinds of huffy if they don't like a comment about their price being too high.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Then again I'm usually pretty reasonable about selling mine and I can't get a break no way, no how it seems.
You're exactly the kind of seller that would benefit from open exchange of information. Unfortunately, your reasonable voice is lost in the shouts of the 'carnival barkers'.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
There are people on here who have been hawking the same lenses and whatnot for months.
I'm certainly interested in knowing how long a product has been posted for sale. Just as 'months listed' is a big part of selling a house, so too does the same info have validity for lens purchasing in that it reflects the 'collective wisdom'.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Sooner or later I get the message and I stop trying. I either use what I'm trying so vainly to sell or I donate it so I can at least get something off my taxes. I figure I might as well...
The sooner the better, the more efficient the marketplace - for both seller and buyer.

08-10-2012, 10:32 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
So no comments at all on price? They surely are there, I'm merely wondering about whether the rules actually serve the needs of the buyer - which is ultimately will determine the success of the marketplace.
Yeah, supposed to be no comments on price one way or another. When there are, it is a failure of board moderation. The rule exists.

These rules are a primary reason the marketplace is generally successful here. It wouldn't last long if you had your way. The information you are seeking is easy enough to find, as you already know since you've taken it upon yourself to go around PMing people to "correct" their prices. You *are* starting to look like a troll...
08-10-2012, 10:38 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
You *are* starting to look like a troll...
Ok...if that's how you want to handle dissent.

Tell you what. If 5 people post a comment "you're a troll" I'll find the door on my own. The count is now at 2.
08-10-2012, 10:43 AM   #41
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I'm not understanding what the issue is.

Say I see someone selling a 50mm f/1.7 on the Marketplace for $150. By going to the lens in the PF database (literally two clicks away), right away I can see it averages for $69.

I know that lens is overpriced immediately, but I can then go in and read 79 seperate revies (some with photo samples) on that lens.

Now when I see that lens for sale for $30 on eBay, the Marketplace, or at a thrift shop somewhere at a later point, I know to snap it up because its selling cheap.

Same thing goes in reverse.

Say I see someone selling a used F* 300mm for $500.

Those same two clicks show it averages for just over $1000. Provided I have the cash and can fire off a PM before that lens is snapped up, I know I just had a bargain provided the thing isn't falling apart. Again, even if I miss the sale here, I now know roughly what to look for in the future price-wise for that lens elsewhere.

Its really not all that complicated unless you're extremely lazy about doing your research. In this case, you're asking others to do that research for you.

FWIW, I've found myself collecting old Sears lenses. By using the method I just laid out (you know, personal research) I know about what those lenses sell for and can spot a bargain or a ripoff relatively easily. This bleeds over to the better quality Pentax and other third party lenses as well, since I've looked them up for comparitive purposes a lot.

The forums are a very, very powerful tool and work very well as-is. If you start scaring away sellers here demanding they lower their prices, all they'll wind up doing is going to eBay where things tend to cost more than here by far.
08-10-2012, 10:48 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
What's the danger in you sharing that type of comment? It's exactly the kind of thing that someone considering a bargain Pentax purchase might appreciate to give them confidence that they're looking for the right kind of product.


I think it's the seller's getting all kinds of huffy if they don't like a comment about their price being too high.


You're exactly the kind of seller that would benefit from open exchange of information. Unfortunately, your reasonable voice is lost in the shouts of the 'carnival barkers'.


I'm certainly interested in knowing how long a product has been posted for sale. Just as 'months listed' is a big part of selling a house, so too does the same info have validity for lens purchasing in that it reflects the 'collective wisdom'.


The sooner the better, the more efficient the marketplace - for both seller and buyer.
I've been a buyer and a seller on the marketplace and take my word for it, it works well. The goal for most sellers isn't to rip off folks, at the same time, well cared for lenses are worth something.

World wide prices are different from the US and sometimes, if a seller is willing to ship abroad, they can get more for their lenses than just selling in the United States.
08-10-2012, 10:52 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
Its really not all that complicated unless you're extremely lazy about doing your research. In this case, you're asking others to do that research for you.
Now I'm lazy too?

To bring that logic to it's ultimate conclusion, I'm lazy for not becoming an optical engineer and designing my own lenses? (Pssst...actually I've already done that).

Convenience is not laziness.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
The forums are a very, very powerful tool and work very well as-is. If you start scaring away sellers here demanding they lower their prices, all they'll wind up doing is going to eBay where things tend to cost more than here by far.
Maybe the seller's will get better prices! I'm not against that. I just want an efficient marketplace, which to me would mean that there is a free and open exchange of information.

Who would buy on Wall Street if analysts were prohibited from using 'Buy' 'Sell' 'Neutral' ratings and couldn't even comment on the stock price? Even more so if analysts were routinely using 'Buy' ratings and not being admonished?
08-10-2012, 10:52 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
I'm not understanding what the issue is.

Say I see someone selling a 50mm f/1.7 on the Marketplace for $150. By going to the lens in the PF database (literally two clicks away), right away I can see it averages for $69.

I know that lens is overpriced immediately, but I can then go in and read 79 seperate revies (some with photo samples) on that lens.
I agree with where you are going, but the lens review section is actually a terrible place to get *current* price information as those are spread over years and years -- if you read the reviews you'll see that many of those people have put in the price they paid new for the lens in the 80s, or they say they got it for a buck at a garage sale. They just aren't realistic as market prices.

If the lens is still being made and sold as new, then it is easy enough to find. Older lenses, ebay is the main place to check. Except for rare lenses, it is not hard to figure out what most of them generally go for. If it is a rare lens, it is probably expensive and justifiably so (for rarity if not ultimate quality), and most likely anyone in the market for the rarer finds at premium prices will have the knowledge and experience to know what they are willing to pay for it.
08-10-2012, 11:00 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
I just want an efficient marketplace,
It is pretty efficient. The main thing that doesn't make it more efficient is the volume of people using it -- which (if the volume was greater) by the way would tend to raise the prices as things tend to sell lower here than at ebay, etc.

You act as if there are no "price signals", but there are -- time, for one. If the seller puts something up and gets zero interest, he knows he either has to be patient or lower the price. If he waits longer still, eventually he is going to realize he has priced himself out of the market (and very likely has already received some private offers for less). But certain items do take some time to find their buyer, and so you are justified in waiting a week or so to see what happens.

But when a seller has a listing sitting around unsold for months, do you really think it does not occur to them that maybe they'll have to lower the price in order to sell? Obviously they just don't want to for whatever reason. That is their right, and we don't need their sales threads filled with "Are you joking with this price?" in order for them to get the message.
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