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08-10-2012, 11:02 AM   #46
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While your desire to protect buyers who are unable or unwilling to think for themselves may be well-intentioned, your recommendation to allow comments on prices is naive, at best.

This experiment has been done countless times on Internet forums of all kinds. The result is always the same: the forum self-destructs under non-stop "your price sucks," "no it doesn't" posts.

08-10-2012, 11:07 AM   #47
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I do think that threads with no activity for, say a month, should be auto-inactivated. The seller should either be bumping the thread, or people making offers. Prices are very reasonable -- generally better than KEH and definitely better than e bay.

Also, if I want to put an FA 77 "rare" lens on the marketplace and price it at 1500 dollars, it won't sell. End of story. Still, it is my perogative to do so. Often you price a lens on the higher end of things initially to test the waters and if nothing happens, drop the price down. Basically the opposite of e bay.
08-10-2012, 11:07 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
if you read the reviews you'll see that many of those people have put in the price they paid new for the lens in the 80s, or they say they got it for a buck at a garage sale. They just aren't realistic as market prices.
Exactly. For example, I've read that Sigma will be weather sealing all of their lenses. Kinda makes the future version of the Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 ($900+) a worthwhile competitor to the Pentax 80-200 f/2.8 (~$2000 used).

I'd like to know everyone's thoughts. There's many a nugget of gold in the gravel of people's opinions.

QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
If the lens is still being made and sold as new, then it is easy enough to find. Older lenses, ebay is the main place to check.
See...the Pentax marketplace could be doing better. More should be sold here. Personally, I don't like Ebay (the business model or the way in which it works).

QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Except for rare lenses, it is not hard to figure out what most of them generally go for. If it is a rare lens, it is probably expensive and justifiably so (for rarity if not ultimate quality), and most likely anyone in the market for the rarer finds at premium prices will have the knowledge and experience to know what they are willing to pay for it.
The more the information, the more the merrier. The merrier people are, the more they tend to buy.
08-10-2012, 11:14 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
That is their right, and we don't need their sales threads filled with "Are you joking with this price?" in order for them to get the message.
Comments can certainly be civil and informative. I don't think free and open discussion tends to lower itself to acrimony. To the contrary, I think the more free and open, the higher the level of intellect.

08-10-2012, 11:19 AM   #50
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To get the exact same price information you want, just put a post in this forum. "I am thinking of buying lens X for $. Is that a reasonable price?" You'll get opinions. There is no reason to mention the seller. Popular lenses and their price have been discussed here many times before. It may clutter the forum a bit with price talk, I suppose.

Another way: put a post in the Wanted area.

I really like to get a PM saying "your price is too high" followed immediately by someone else's "tell me how to pay you".

Last edited by Just1MoreDave; 08-10-2012 at 11:32 AM.
08-10-2012, 11:37 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
While your desire to protect buyers who are unable or unwilling to think for themselves may be well-intentioned, your recommendation to allow comments on prices is naive, at best.
Come now, that's not how education works. An open mind allows itself to be influenced. That's not the sign of a lazy intellect.

QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
This experiment has been done countless times on Internet forums of all kinds. The result is always the same: the forum self-destructs under non-stop "your price sucks," "no it doesn't" posts.
Which ones? I'm not being snarky. I'm curious how society interacts on the internet and you may have a valid point.

My thought has been that the Pentax community is fairly small and that would work to ensure a higher level of discussion. I could be wrong but on the highly technical forums (online and offline) that I've been a part of, there has always been a constructive dialogue.
08-10-2012, 11:40 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
See...the Pentax marketplace could be doing better. More should be sold here. Personally, I don't like Ebay (the business model or the way in which it works).
I meant ebay is the place to check for the prices on older lenses being sold here if you don't know what is a good price. You can also check the marketplace archives here for the same thing. But the reviews section prices are totally unreliable as market guides.

QuoteQuote:
The more the information, the more the merrier. The merrier people are, the more they tend to buy.
Not if nothing is for sale because you chased all the sellers away by sabotaging their threads with price talk. As has been repeatedly said, what you are are asking for has been tried many times, AND THIS WORKS BETTER. You don't want hindrances but that is the practical effect of what you want. It is simply a fantasy that we can have all this "open talk" on sales threads without wrecking the very thing it is supposed to be helping. Are you going to pay for moderators to check every comment to make sure it is "fair" and "non-acrimonious" as if those things could actually be nailed down? I sell things here -- I'm going to list some Takumars today. But if I have to deal with thread sabotage, I'm not going to anymore and I'll put them on ebay or craigslist or some other forum where I don't have to deal with nonsense. And so will a lot of others. Where is your efficient forum then? Everything you suggest will lead to less market participation and more hard feelings and strife. The simple truth is it won't work, and that's been proven many times as most who have been around a while on various forums can attest.
08-10-2012, 12:38 PM   #53
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As it is now, the idea that it's a sales 'thread' is something of a misnomer. I mean, what can actually be discussed on a 'for sale' posting without comments being seen as a tacit endorsement of the sales offer. If someone has an item for sale for $500 and a 2nd party comments 'I have this lens too...it's a great lens', is that not subtle (or even overt) 'buy it' post? Perhaps, and I have no problem with that.

The problem I do have is that that the rules don't allow a way to communicate the idea that a price does not reflect other person's experience. There is no way to record a 'silent protest' on an internet forum. A crowd of 500 people saying nothing, sitting in front of the supreme court, registers that they dissent in some way. How do we do that with the internet (check page views to comments ratio)?

There is no legitimate discussion where one is only allowed to endorse the validity of an idea; one must also be capable of dissenting. I believe that discussion will serve to make a more legitimate and efficient market (that's been the story of e-commerce sites).

The repeated mention of Ebay brings me to this point: Currently, in the US there are 4 Pentax FA* 80-200mm f/2.8 lenses on sale on ebay; the Pentax forums have 0. It seems nonsensical to me to argue that the Pentax forums are better for sellers because the prices are consistently lower here. Again, I'm not looking for a market that depresses prices. Maybe that's why the Pentax FA* lenses are on Ebay?

What I am looking for is a convenient, efficient market that serves the interests of the buyer and seller. As a buyer, the more targeted information I have to consider, the better I feel my interests are served. As I'm only looking for Pentax compatible lenses, I'm not interested in the Ebay or Google search tools that offer results which do not apply. I am interested in all opinions of Pentax forum users, and I can discriminate as to which I feel is most valid (see: I'm not all about having a nanny site).

Perhaps the forum rules should be modified so that a seller might 'invite discussion' on the relative merits of the lens, including the price. As a buyer, I would probably be more interested in reading about items in a free and open way - and would probably check this as a filter for 'email me about new for sale items'.


Last edited by dmytty; 08-10-2012 at 01:04 PM.
08-10-2012, 12:52 PM   #54
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you can always make a price comment through a PM by making an offer if it is an item you are looking for, if they choose not to take ti perhaps they will sit on the item for a long time, perhaps not
the rule makes sense to prevent spamming of the seller with posts about the price
where someone in one market may think an item is overpriced another market may think it's a good price. US pricing is not a worldwide price (though with UPP it wwas pretty close to what the rest of us pay)
08-10-2012, 01:02 PM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
The problem I do have is that that the rule's don't allow a way to communicate the idea that a price does not reflect other person's experience. There is no way to record a 'silent protest' on an internet forum.
Which is exactly the purpose of the rule, and is quite intentional because it works better to attract sellers. Also consider that sellers pay for the privilege to sell here.

QuoteQuote:
There is no legitimate discussion where one is only allowed to endorse the validity of an idea; one must also be capable of dissenting.
Yes, that's right. It isn't a discussion, and isn't supposed to be.

QuoteQuote:
I believe that discussion will serve to make a more legitimate and efficient market (that's been the story of e-commerce sites).
I think you are just plain wrong here, and the evidence is on my side. Where are these marketplaces that have open comments to disparage the prices of specific individual sellers? The ones that try that fall into chaos quickly. What makes this place so special that human nature doesn't apply?

QuoteQuote:
The repeated mention of Ebay brings me to this point: Currently, in the US there are 4 Pentax FA* 80-200mm f/2.8 lenses on sale on ebay; the Pentax forums have 0. It seems nonsensical to me to argue that the Pentax forums are better for sellers because the prices are consistently lower here. Again, I'm not looking for a market that depresses prices. Maybe that's why the Pentax FA* lenses are on Ebay?
Or maybe because the difference between 4 and 0 is still only 4, and a *GAZILLION* more people use ebay than this forum, popular as it is. Ebay will always have more of whatever you care to name. And the prices will also always be higher generally. But ebay takes a cut of the purchase price and has other fees, so you can sell here for less and still net the same amount.

QuoteQuote:
What I am looking for is a convenient, efficient market that serves the interests of the buyer and seller. As a buyer, the more targeted information I have to consider, the better I feel my interests are served. As I'm only looking for Pentax compatible lenses, I'm not interested in the Ebay or Google search tools that offer results which do not apply. I am interested in all opinions of Pentax forum users, and I can discriminate as to which I feel is most valid (see: I'm not all about having a nanny site).
Be the change you wish to see. Start your own marketplace, and you can make the rules whatever you like. This place has a proven model and doesn't need fixing.

QuoteQuote:
Perhaps the forum rules should be modified so that a seller might 'invite discussion' on the relative merits of the lens, including the price. As a buyer, I would probably be more interested in reading about items in a free and open way - and would probably check this as a filter for 'email me about new for sale items'.
I think the seller could get away with a bit of that if they wanted, but the rules also prohibit auctions and "make an offer" type listings. It just isn't what you want, but it is what it is and IT WORKS WELL. Again, feel free to create your own marketplace.
08-10-2012, 01:04 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
you can always make a price comment through a PM by making an offer if it is an item you are looking for,
Again, I'm not looking to beat down the price. I'm looking for 3rd party comments on the lens, including the relative value.
08-10-2012, 01:16 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
More should be sold here.
Part of the fun is searching for bargains out in the wild. The folks here are very well informed and unless they are desperate to sell you will not find a real bargain here, items will sell at the going rate.

QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
Comments can certainly be civil and informative. I don't think free and open discussion tends to lower itself to acrimony. To the contrary, I think the more free and open, the higher the level of intellect.
The problem with this is that it is the internet after all, populated by all types of personalities, and it only takes a couple of idiots to ruin things.

QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
Perhaps the forum rules should be modified so that a seller might 'invite discussion' on the relative merits of the lens, including the price.
You can create a poll to see how folks feel about a change in the rules. I would vote to keep the rules as they exist as I feel it is proven to work well and keeps the activity civil and respectful.
08-10-2012, 01:20 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Where are these marketplaces that have open comments to disparage the prices of specific individual sellers? The ones that try that fall into chaos quickly. What makes this place so special that human nature doesn't apply?
There have been numerous citations of selling forums that devolved into chaos. I have asked for an example. Can you offer one? As to this place being special...well, it's Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
There is no legitimate discussion where one is only allowed to endorse the validity of an idea; one must also be capable of dissenting.
QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Yes, that's right. It isn't a discussion, and isn't supposed to be.
It's precisely the discussion elements of the Pentax forum that makes the marketplace viable (ie I don't think the marketplace would stand on it's own). I think it's only logical to extend that same valuable open discussion element to the sales offer, thereby making the marketplace a stronger forum for selling; just as open discussion (endorsement/dissent) makes the lens reviews better.

QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Again, feel free to create your own marketplace.
You speak as if this is your marketplace and I'm the 'outsider'. I'm bringing a suggestion and having an engaging discussion on the issue. I don't see this as a territorial dispute. I'm merely making the case as a buyer seeking to improve the marketplace as I see it. As a seller, I thought you should be interested in inviting my thoughts - not pushing me away.
08-10-2012, 01:34 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
Part of the fun is searching for bargains out in the wild. The folks here are very well informed and unless they are desperate to sell you will not find a real bargain here, items will sell at the going rate.
I want an efficient marketplace - not just a bargain bin. An efficient marketplace could mean a bargain offer if the seller needs cash quick. It could also be an efficient market if a seller is prepared to wait for a buyer needing to buy the lens very quickly at a modest discount to new - or even a premium. As for information, an efficient marketplace is one in which I receive targeted information (e.g. don't see Canon/Nikon lenses that don't apply as per Ebay searches).

Without open comments on the price/value, the market is restricted to those that have insight to the real value and are in the market for that particular item itself. With open comments, those with insight are allowed to freely post their thoughts and thereby open the market up to those that are in the market for that type of item but are otherwise unsure of their knowledge (e.g. me). Especially for legacy lenses, it's precisely those owners who have the most insight and it's their comments I want most (price included).

Individual offers might suffer the loss of the occasional 'opportunistic sucker sell', but the marketplace as a whole will benefit if more people are informed and inviting new people to the Pentax forum and brand.

Speaking for myself, I think that more sales are lost due to a lack of confidence in one's level of knowledge - especially as it relates to value. I, for one, would probably experiment with many lenses at many price points if I knew I was getting a decent value and would have a reasonable chance at recouping 80-90% of my original investment (less wear) - thereby allowing me to buy more lenses and experience the wonder of the interchangeable slr system.

Sure, the information is 'out there', but as it relates to efficiency, I'd like to gain more information, quicker. That would let me spend more time taking pictures and less time trawling for the elusive 'value' info. And if it's right there in the sales offer, that makes it quicker for me to analyze, and ultimately buy.

QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
The problem with this is that it is the internet after all, populated by all types of personalities, and it only takes a couple of idiots to ruin things.
Sure, we're all animals and we're all idiots at times. That's why we have society, and polite society is based on open discussion. If you want to promote animal behavior in people, put their thoughts in a cage. That's why I growled when I saw the 'big gouge' reflected in the used-more-expensive-than-new postings.

QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
You can create a poll to see how folks feel about a change in the rules. I would vote to keep the rules as they exist as I feel it is proven to work well and keeps the activity civil and respectful.
I think we all know how to be civil even if we don't agree. Rules are societal norms. I would suggest that people are already very respectful on the forums and would be more likely to remain so if their comments were publicly viewed and open to like/dislike. Numerous sellers have talked about being 'abused' and 'beaten down' via PM. I think the comments would be more gracious and informed if they were publicly made and attached to their account for all to see (ie ill advised comments would degrade reputation).

We all know people in life who are 'skin flints' and 'tire kickers'. If a seller wants a harmonious carefree selling experience that doesn't include the nagging of the unwashed masses, he/she could restrict PMs and/or comments to those that have a certain level of 'rep points'. Conversely, if another buyer likes the haggling, let them set the tone as such. And of course, the seller wouldn't necessarily need to read the comments at all if they were 'above the fray'.

My point is...do we need a rule that restricts comments? Can't sellers determine that on a case by case basis?

I think something better than Ebay could exist, and I don't think the Pentax forum marketplace is the pinnacle of information or product exchanges. Surely all things can be improved.

Last edited by dmytty; 08-10-2012 at 01:53 PM.
08-10-2012, 02:08 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
There have been numerous citations of selling forums that devolved into chaos. I have asked for an example. Can you offer one? As to this place being special...well, it's Pentax.
It seems obvious to me, but failures don't persist, successes do. So please show us some examples that follow your model, since it would work so well there ought to be plenty. I can show you a successful example that follows the "no price comments" model -- you're looking at it.

QuoteQuote:
I think it's only logical to extend that same valuable open discussion element to the sales offer, thereby making the marketplace a stronger forum for selling; just as open discussion (endorsement/dissent) makes the lens reviews better.
But you want to review the seller, not the lens. Why would any seller participate in a marketplace where disparagement of the seller was encouraged when that same seller has plenty of other options for where to go sell. You can't have a marketplace with nothing for sale! Buyers will go where ever people are selling stuff they want at prices they want.

QuoteQuote:
You speak as if this is your marketplace
It is not my marketplace, nor my rules. But I do sell here sometimes, and would NOT if your suggestion were taken up. And I wouldn't be the only one as I can easily sell elsewhere. So you keep talking about improving the marketplace, but how is driving away sellers improving anything? The remaining sales will just be so *awesome* I guess because all those price crimes will be eliminated! Where is your evidence that anyone ever paid too much for anything on this forum for lack of "open" discussion?

QuoteQuote:
and I'm the 'outsider'. I'm bringing a suggestion and having an engaging discussion on the issue. I don't see this as a territorial dispute. I'm merely making the case as a buyer seeking to improve the marketplace as I see it. As a seller, I thought you should be interested in inviting my thoughts - not pushing me away.
Uh, you are an outsider. You just joined. You haven't bought or sold anything or even participated in the forum discussions before. (Does that sound like a description of an "insider"?) But you want to barge in and change everything even though you're not even part of the community yet. Why do you think you have been called a troll? Because that's trollish behavior. And I'm not trying to push you away. I'm simply telling you are wrong, and your suggestions would wreck the marketplace. No one has called for your banishment or anything like that. Just said that you are wrong and naive. You seem to think that by persisting in disagreeing with you, I've committed some sin. But I do disagree, and I'm not going to agree, and that's that. Especially since you've offered no evidence that you are right, just rhetoric that "logic dictates". If only people were ruled by logic, you might have a point...
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