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08-10-2012, 02:09 PM   #61
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The problem is that you also have to cater to other people's perception of value.

For example, I'm also on a few car related forums, one of which has had past problems with what you are suggesting.

The issue came when there were items listed at what some would call a reasonable price, and others would call a rip off.


An example is an exhaust system, it's a somewhat rare one that has been out of production for many years, the seller had it advertised at $500. (note: $500 was the rough price other's sold for in teh past)

On one hand you have legitimate people saying "good price" "good item" etc
Then you get one that says "why would you pay $500 for this when you could get a similar item for $200"

Instantly any potential buyers are looking at the item now and second guessing what they're willing to pay for it.








To go back to your idea about the shop with a competitor selling products for 20% less next door.

posting in a for sale thread isn't the same as telling a buyer there's a cheaper place next door, it's more like spray painting "go next door, it's cheaper!" on the shop's front window.

If you feel the need to protect buyers, do it personally. Send them a PM telling them, it's much more like wispering in their ear.

08-10-2012, 02:29 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by hks_kansei Quote
The problem is that you also have to cater to other people's perception of value.
Yes, that's the rub of free market pricing. One must 'cater to'. I suggest that not allowing buyers to easily access information is not 'catering to' said buyers.

QuoteOriginally posted by hks_kansei Quote
For example, I'm also on a few car related forums, one of which has had past problems with what you are suggesting.
The issue came when there were items listed at what some would call a reasonable price, and others would call a rip off.
Instantly any potential buyers are looking at the item now and second guessing what they're willing to pay for it.
Well, most discriminating buyers will second guess any of their purchases, and the type that don't hem-and-haw and have the budget to match are unlikely to be browsing for used equipment. That said, I would suggest that the scenario you presented is not bad at all. The potential buyer is left to discriminate between the varied opinions based on reputation, strength of argument, etc. The point is, they have real information and opinions to consider. Most pentax forum sales threads are void of any real information, in contrast to the lens reviews and other forum threads (which go on for pages). I suggest that the dearth of information on sales threads is not because people don't have an opinion, but rather it's because they feel stifled by the marketplace rules. Stifled and stuffy is hardly the condition one strives for in a marketplace.

QuoteOriginally posted by hks_kansei Quote
To go back to your idea about the shop with a competitor selling products for 20% less next door.
posting in a for sale thread isn't the same as telling a buyer there's a cheaper place next door, it's more like spray painting "go next door, it's cheaper!" on the shop's front window.
If you feel the need to protect buyers, do it personally. Send them a PM telling them, it's much more like wispering in their ear.
The seller's information is certainly more prominent and they certainly still have the 'propaganda' edge. They have their shop, and my comments and others are like holding up a small sign somewhere in the back of the store.

Open commentary suppression is more like a shop owner prohibiting anyone from discussing the price in their shop. I don't think that's welcoming, and I think any success would be in spite of that policy, rather than because of it.
08-10-2012, 02:37 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
So...I'm wondering about the forum rules that prohibit 'table' talk which might disparage a price or piece of equipment. Is there a sound reason for this, other than to seemingly protect sellers?
QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
IMO, a free exchange of information will only make the marketplace a better place to browse, be educated, and buy.
No, it won't. What it will do is turn people's sale threads into p___ing contests.

There is a very simple, very elegant solution to the issue of a seller overpricing his items: If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it, the situation will remedy itself.

QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
Again, I'm not looking to beat down the price. I'm looking for 3rd party comments on the lens, including the relative value.
We have a forum for that. This forum. The Lens Discussion forum, where people discuss things such as relative value, prices, performance, etc.

Last edited by Parallax; 08-10-2012 at 02:47 PM.
08-10-2012, 02:44 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
It seems obvious to me, but failures don't persist, successes do. So please show us some examples that follow your model, since it would work so well there ought to be plenty. I can show you a successful example that follows the "no price comments" model -- you're looking at it.
QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Especially since you've offered no evidence that you are right, just rhetoric that "logic dictates". If only people were ruled by logic, you might have a point...
Well, firstly I think it's only fair that someone who first presents an argument to support their case then has the onus of providing the examples. As you point out, I'm largely basing my case on logic. It was others that first brought up the idea that open discussion leads to chaos and anarchy.

However, I offer Amazon and Newegg as the e-commerce sites that support the idea that open support and dissent - including discussion of pricing - have created good marketplaces. Amazon allows both the seller and product to be rated. Newegg in particular (a place that I have spent thousands this summer) allows open comments ,including mention of the price that one paid and whether it was good value. It's the convenience of this information that I find as valuable as the information itself.

For legacy and even current lenses, it takes time to gather together all the information required to make a good purchasing decision. I suggest that many people will not have the time, and will also not be willing to make a poorly informed decision, thus their decision will be to simply not buy.

QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
But you want to review the seller, not the lens. Why would any seller participate in a marketplace where disparagement of the seller was encouraged when that same seller has plenty of other options for where to go sell. You can't have a marketplace with nothing for sale! Buyers will go where ever people are selling stuff they want at prices they want.
I want to review anything that comes to my mind. If I want to sound like an idiot, then I can be free to do so. Others can simply ignore me, or discredit my reputation. Sure there might be the occasional poor statement that's not worth the screen space. However, the risk of inane and unqualified comments exists for any public forum, and other parts of the Pentax forum do just fine accommodating poorly formed or articulated opinions (including discussing the value of an item).

08-10-2012, 03:02 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
However, I offer Amazon and Newegg as the e-commerce sites that support the idea that open support and dissent - including discussion of pricing - have created good marketplaces. Amazon allows both the seller and product to be rated. Newegg in particular (a place that I have spent thousands this summer) allows open comments ,including mention of the price that one paid and whether it was good value. It's the convenience of this information that I find as valuable as the information itself.
If those are the best you've got, you've got nothing to stand on as they are completely different. Newegg has one seller: Newegg, and their prices are lowish versions of retail for all new items. You aren't harming an individual person if you say, "Hey this price is too high" on newegg. Here, you are directly sabotaging a specific individual and poisoning their potential sale (no matter if your comment was fair or not). And on Amazon for individual sellers and used items there is NOT a way to say, "Hey, this person has a price that is wrong." There are item reviews and seller feedback -- both of which exist here also -- but no way to single out a particular item for sale to expose its pricing sins. So, it is already pretty much like Amazon right here. So, that example doesn't work either.

QuoteQuote:
For legacy and even current lenses, it takes time to gather together all the information required to make a good purchasing decision. I suggest that many people will not have the time, and will also not be willing to make a poorly informed decision, thus their decision will be to simply not buy.
No one is stopping the seller from pointing to all the price information he wants -- and some do. If a seller thinks that will bring in more buyers, he'll do that.

QuoteQuote:
I want to review anything that comes to my mind. If I want to sound like an idiot, then I can be free to do so. Others can simply ignore me, or discredit my reputation. Sure there might be the occasional poor statement that's not worth the screen space. However, the risk of inane and unqualified comments exists for any public forum, and other parts of the Pentax forum do just fine accommodating poorly formed or articulated opinions (including discussing the value of an item).
You are ignoring the fact that your comments hurt others -- actually hurt them in the pocketbook because any sales thread with a "this price sucks" comment, even if totally unjustified will only make it harder to sell the item. There is no defense for it except to not have it in the first place as it is on the order of "when did you stop beating your wife?"

And with that, I'm done. Been flogging the horse for some time now, and it is quite dead. This is just academic anyway since there is no chance of the policy being changed...
08-10-2012, 03:04 PM   #66
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The marketplace for the Emperor's New Clothes?

QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
No, it won't. What it will do is turn people's sale threads into p___ing contests.

There is a very simple, very elegant solution to the issue of a seller overpricing his items: If you think it's too expensive, don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it, the situation will remedy itself.
At risk of offending a moderator, I would say that 'not saying anything' is hardly elegant. It is simple, but history has tended to favor marketplaces that allow for more complexity and more exchange of information - not less. Amazon and Newegg reflect that reality well.

The crux of it seems to be: Are you also supporting a marketplace for the Emperor's New Clothes - do not question what others might be (or not be) seeing and selling?

People have accused me of trying to set up a 'nanny' site, or that I'm motivated to 'protect' buyers. Well, I'm certainly questioning the 'nannying' and 'protection' of sellers!

As to things devolving to a 'p___ing contest', I would say that it can be a bit more intellectual than that. Speaking for myself on this forum, I don't think I've attempted to assert myself in brute fashion by suggesting they leave, etc. I think my public language has always been fine, and I've never had to substitute __ or ** for crude words that I might be using. In fact, after 4 pages of comments, it took a moderator to use crude offensive words (note: crude words often reflect crude arguments).

As an aside, I would also say that I do not feel that a moderator should weigh in with a strongly worded opinion. Hardly the way to encourage 'free and open discussion' (there's that phrase again).
08-10-2012, 03:12 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
If those are the best you've got
Well...what sites do you offer as 'evidence'?

You make the point that a seller might suffer. However, the marketplace does not serve to protect the individual seller or buyer but rather the integrity of the marketplace itself.

A marketplace does not care what price has been set, but rather the means by which that price was set. If information is constrained, or rules favor one party over another, then the price is not legitimate.

In the Pentax forum marketplace case, sales offers often include positive 'endorsement' comments by lens owners - and moderators look the other way. This type of lax one-sided regulation does not ultimately serve the interests of legitimate sellers. If regulations cannot - or will not - be fairly enforced, then they ought to be eliminated so as to eliminate the unfairness which will undermine the marketplace.
08-10-2012, 03:18 PM - 2 Likes   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by dmytty Quote
As an aside, I would also say that I do not feel that a moderator should weigh in with a strongly worded opinion. Hardly the way to encourage 'free and open discussion' (there's that phrase again).
It's amazing that after three whole days of membership you feel it necessary to regale us with your wisdom as to how a site should be run and all of the things that are wrong with this one. So far you have 27 posts; 21 of them in this thread whining about a seller not accepting your offer and/or sage advice, or complaining about forum rules. (How's that for a strongly worded opinion?)

BTW, as this is the Lens Discussion Forum, and this discussion isn't about lenses, this is closed.


Last edited by Parallax; 08-10-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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