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03-08-2008, 08:39 PM   #16
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I did a lot of shooting today, starting with an impractical attempt to sway myself in favor of my investment by blowing K10 images to K20 resolution to feel the power of the 14.6MP.

Its here - https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/22335-k10-vs-k20-go.html

I always get a weird knot in my stomach if I feel like I've wasted a lot of money so I take it upon myself to get to the bottom of things as best I can. I'm happy to say that after todays shooting, I've gotten myself a little excited. The new body with no dead pixel helps too The K10 still holds its own quite well, though (as seen in the full image sample comparison).

03-09-2008, 08:44 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by nostatic Quote
Well, here is my reality. I shot in hk recently with my Leica D-Lux3 and the K10d:

hk08 - Page 1

Very few of the K10d shots were "good" according to my eye (only one or two of those are from the K10d iirc). Now I will take all the blame for it, as it could just be that I didn't know my way around the camera well enough. But in the end it doesn't matter...if I get an image with one tool and not another one, then I either have to be willing to work with/around the second tool, or try another one.

I don't pixel peep. I take photos. For *me* in this instance the K10d wasn't happening. That doesn't mean it isn't a fine camera...it just means that it didn't work *for me.* I had better luck with my old D70 comparing dslr to dslr shots but the glass was different (I think the older Nikkor 105mm micro blows the Pentax 100mm macro out of the water). Again, it may mean that I just didn't take enough time to warm to the K10d...but it is what it is.

Also, note that I didn't "blame" the K10d for the images. I just said that in my hands and in my opinion my Leica p&s outperformed it. To me, performance means the end result...the shot (and not of newspaper or a brick wall...well, unless the brick wall is really interesting)
You must have done something horrifically wrong with the K10D if it was not able to beat the D-Lux3 hands down, even with the kit lens on the K10D!

The D-Lux3 is the same exact camera as the Panasonic DMC-LX2, which is the successor to the DMC-LX1 which I own. The LX2 only has higher resolution without an increase in sensor size, which means only one thing - The LX1's worst aspect (sensor noise) is made worse without any advantages.

My K10D consistently outperforms the DMC-LX1 in all situations. Even at ISO 80 the LX1 had sensor noise, while I can take the K10D to 400 before I notice any noise. Images are sharper too, and shutter lag on the LX1 was abysmal (although the one difference between the Pannys and the Leicas is different firmware so maybe shutter lag is a bit better with the Leicas.)

Based on how crippled by sensor noise my LX1 is, I shudder to think what the noise from a DMC-LX2/D-Lux3 would be.
03-09-2008, 11:42 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Entropy Quote
You must have done something horrifically wrong with the K10D if it was not able to beat the D-Lux3 hands down, even with the kit lens on the K10D!

The D-Lux3 is the same exact camera as the Panasonic DMC-LX2, which is the successor to the DMC-LX1 which I own. The LX2 only has higher resolution without an increase in sensor size, which means only one thing - The LX1's worst aspect (sensor noise) is made worse without any advantages.

My K10D consistently outperforms the DMC-LX1 in all situations. Even at ISO 80 the LX1 had sensor noise, while I can take the K10D to 400 before I notice any noise. Images are sharper too, and shutter lag on the LX1 was abysmal (although the one difference between the Pannys and the Leicas is different firmware so maybe shutter lag is a bit better with the Leicas.)

Based on how crippled by sensor noise my LX1 is, I shudder to think what the noise from a DMC-LX2/D-Lux3 would be.
"crippled by sensor noise" - you sound like the reviews Fortunately I don't find my final images to be crippled...

Not sure about "horrifically wrong." I alternated between dummy/green mode and either iso or aperture priority modes. Depended if I was going run-and-gun or if I had time to actually work the shot.

As for noise, it can be a good thing depending on what you're trying to achieve and how the lens/sensor draws it. Evidently your LX1 isn't my DLux3, as shutter lag isn't an issue (then again I've learned to anticipate) and I can get very clean images up to iso400, and nice grain at iso800. Just depends on how/where you shoot.





iso 800, horizontal crop of a 16x9 vertical image

Is the noise you see from pixel peeping, or is it showing up on large prints, or ?

As for sharpness, the kit lens on the K10d is pretty good, but it is what it is. I really want to shoot a K10d or K20d with a prime and see what it will do. But I'm also drawn to the Zuiko glass so the E3 is in the mix as well.

The bottom line is that I don't give a crap about numbers. And too many people seem to get hung up on shooting brick walls and newspapers. In the real images that I get, noise isn't a deal-killer. But I guess I have different goals than other people. Horses for courses...
03-10-2008, 08:56 PM   #19
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Here's my view of the situation. Wait until some of the astro photographers in here get a copy of the K20D and test it for long exposures. If the K20d shines at that then it'll be better for your night time long exposures.

People have already commented on it superior high ISO performance so in low light at high ISOs the K20D would be the better choice. So wait for more long exposure stuff to be posted and make your mind up.

Get a few low cost M42 primes or the like and you'll have a low light weapon. There's no point on wasting money on the best stuff when sometimes the cheaper stuff can perform just as well in certain situations.

If you are really budget conscious I'd just get the K10D & battery grip or 4 spare batteries (long exposures use more battery power) and get yourself an older M42 24mm prime, a Pentax 28 or 35mm prime a 50mm prime and a 135mm prime.

Most of all have fun and don't let decisions rob the opportunity to get some decent photos.

Tim H

03-11-2008, 03:10 AM   #20
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Getting back to the original question, though, is the K10D a good cam for the newbie - answer, YES!
Is the K20D good for a newbie - answer, YES!

Both cams are great tools that pros like those on this forum are using, and getting fantastic results.
Both cams have enough features that a newbie can grow into for years!

I started with the K100D and didn't regret it, but have found the K10D now taking me to another level in learning...

Again, it's not the camera that does the work for you - the one behind the camera has 90% of the job to do...
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