New Pentax lenses? K20D v K10D?

dazman · 03-07-2008, 07:48 AM

Hi All,

After searching through pages and pages of posts trying to find the answer to my questions & not having any success, I'm going to have to ask a couple of questions that have no doubt been asked/answered previously...Sorry!

The Pentax 17-70??? Is there a release date? What is the expected price?
The Long rumoured Pentax 60-250...release date? Price?
Pentax 55-300? As above

Lastly...I live in Australia and was going to buy the K10D for AUS$1100 body only (avg. retail price in Oz), but with the release of the K20D and it's price tag only an extra AUS $400 = AUS$1500 body only (not as big a jump in price compared to you all in the States...God bless the weak US $) I'm having a hard time deciding on which one to buy? This will be my 1st d-slr which I'll be using for traveling, have a passion for night/low light photography and whatever else catches my eye!
Are the new features & improvements in the K20D something a newbie like me will appreciate and benefit for having & paid an extra $400 to have? I've handled and had a good play with both cameras...the current leader is K20D...no big surprise there! If you were in my shoes which camera would you buy?...and why?

Regards
Daz

Kguru · 03-07-2008, 08:02 AM

As you described, the K10D is way way overpriced in Aust (A$1100 vs $600 in US) so I would not buy it new here. My choice would be K20D here, or K10D from B&H shipped to Aust (if still available), or one of the "as-new" K10Ds that are bound to appear in droves

soon for around $500.

Mechan1k · 03-07-2008, 09:10 AM

With the way the Aussie dollar is at the moment ... It's a great time to buy from the US.
I just don't have the cash at the moment to do so.

thePiRaTE!! · 03-07-2008, 09:11 AM

If I were starting all over again, knowing what I know now, it would really depend on my overall budget more than anything if I'd bother with the K20. I just got mine and I'm in the process of getting scientific just to tell if its better OR WORSE than my K10. The more I play with it, the more I think the new sensor is a lateral move. It has its ups, but a lot of them seem to be coming with gotchas performance wise. For the price, it honestly seems to me that the K10 is again proving to be a far better value for the current money.

With that choice made, I tried the new 200 while in the shop and was very pleasantly surprised at the SDM. Quick, silent and smooth. The build quality seemed excellent and it is a FF lens, so if things ever go that way, you're 'future-proof'. I look forward to the 60-250 and the 300 as well. I just hope that the 60-250 takes it cues more from the 200 and 300 then the earlier DA* in the good/bad copy ratio dept. I hope holding it back meant it got all the R&D it needed.

nostatic · 03-07-2008, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by thePiRaTE!!

It has its ups, but a lot of them seem to be coming with gotchas performance wise.

what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high...

roscot · 03-07-2008, 12:26 PM

I'm pondering the move myself, what kind of performance hits are you seeing?

roentarre · 03-07-2008, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high...

Are you serious?

Leica is definitely amazing on films. Seriously, this is a bit of overstatement.

If you line up all the p&s and Nikon D3 images resized for web format, they probably all look the same. This is unfair to blame k10d for inferior images.

nostatic · 03-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by roentarre

Are you serious?

Leica is definitely amazing on films. Seriously, this is a bit of overstatement.

If you line up all the p&s and Nikon D3 images resized for web format, they probably all look the same. This is unfair to blame k10d for inferior images.

Well, here is my reality. I shot in hk recently with my Leica D-Lux3 and the K10d:

hk08 - Page 1

Very few of the K10d shots were "good" according to my eye (only one or two of those are from the K10d iirc). Now I will take all the blame for it, as it could just be that I didn't know my way around the camera well enough. But in the end it doesn't matter...if I get an image with one tool and not another one, then I either have to be willing to work with/around the second tool, or try another one.

I don't pixel peep. I take photos. For *me* in this instance the K10d wasn't happening. That doesn't mean it isn't a fine camera...it just means that it didn't work *for me.* I had better luck with my old D70 comparing dslr to dslr shots but the glass was different (I think the older Nikkor 105mm micro blows the Pentax 100mm macro out of the water). Again, it may mean that I just didn't take enough time to warm to the K10d...but it is what it is.

Also, note that I didn't "blame" the K10d for the images. I just said that in my hands and in my opinion my Leica p&s outperformed it. To me, performance means the end result...the shot (and not of newspaper or a brick wall...well, unless the brick wall is really interesting)

antman · 03-07-2008, 04:24 PM

Prices are quite a bit lower than that by about $100-200 at least...

thePiRaTE!! · 03-07-2008, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high...

Originally posted by roscot

I'm pondering the move myself, what kind of performance hits are you seeing?

I posted to a thread in Pentax news and rumours regarding expanded dynamic range. I held hope that it might be a real plus in the low-light dept in conjunction with higher ISO, but my initial (and barely scientific at this point, granted) opinion is that it adds visible noise to shots over ISO 200. Maybe it'll be good outdoors at day, I don't really know yet, but in my condo shooting things in low-light where I was hoping to see the gains, it was just noisy. I'll leave it off by default... lateral.

I read about HDR in camera, but its a JPEG only thing... I guess it won't change the way I do things... lateral.

The screen seems to show noise a lot more visibly than the K10 did and I'm still trying to figure out if thats because the ISO performance isn't really all that or if the screen is perhaps of higher res and shows more. Its disconcerting, but it doesn't seem to impact the images once seen in PS, but it means I have to get used to accepting a level of noise on screen I was used to deleting on sight with the K10... plus? minus?

ISO 3200 is not useable if you care about image quality. 6400 comes disabled (for a good reason judging by 3200). I don't mean to pee all over the thing, I did buy it, and will keep it, but I just felt let down based on my expectations for a _big_ improvement. K20 shots actually look noisier on its back screen vs equivalent ISO K10 shots do on its own back-screen. I'm confused by this and hope to hear a reason I can feel good about.

Last but not least my copy came with a dead pixel. Luckily, The Camera Store here in town is awesome and just said bring it back for a swap. That could happen with anything, but while I was pixel peeping the noise I found that too and it didn't improve my outlook.

Anyways, you asked! Those are my reasons for saying the K10 is a better value for todays money. I'll keep on testing in wider environments this weekend. I'm sure I'll find a reason why its worth the extra 600, heh. My negative side hopes I'm not simply funding R&D on the new sensor line which has yet to reap the benefits.

twinda1 · 03-07-2008, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by nostatic

Well, here is my reality. I shot in hk recently with my Leica D-Lux3 and the K10d:

hk08 - Page 1

I saw your gallery before, and I like it. Are you sure it's not the rendering characteristics of small sensors cameras that you like? I browse a lot of Ricoh GRD (another fine camera) galleries and, speaking in generalities, your photos have the same "look".

nostatic · 03-07-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by twinda1

I saw your gallery before, and I like it. Are you sure it's not the rendering characteristics of small sensors cameras that you like? I browse a lot of Ricoh GRD (another fine camera) galleries and, speaking in generalities, your photos have the same "look".

Thanks for the kind words. I've wondered the same thing, and have pondered buying a GRD2, largely based on the work of Mitch Elland and a few others who are on the getdpi forums. I have always shot more towards the abstract/macro side of things, but have evolved recently into more street scene stuff and b&w. I actually like noise/grain if it looks "right" (to me).

It is true that the different sensor sizes seem to "draw" differently. Sometimes I wonder if I need a dslr at all...but there are times that I need more flexibility and capability. I really want to play with an M8, but at $5K for the body and at least $2K/lens....well, lets just say that I'd have to be dead sure that I loved working with rangefinders. Maybe I should pick up a cheap film version and do the experiment. But even then you never know until you get the particular digital incarnation. And there is no way i'm going back to shooting film as much as I love the look.

Over the past couple years I did produce some shots I really like with the D70/105micro combination. I was hoping to exceed that with the K10d/100mm macro setup but it didn't stick with me first go 'round. But there is something to the Pentax vibe and I do like the ergonomics and UI of the camera. Hence wanting to check the K20d, and my asking about what the "gotchas" are.

nostatic · 03-07-2008, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by thePiRaTE!!

I posted to a thread in Pentax news and rumours regarding expanded dynamic range. I held hope that it might be a real plus in the low-light dept in conjunction with higher ISO, but my initial (and barely scientific at this point, granted) opinion is that it adds visible noise to shots over ISO 200. Maybe it'll be good outdoors at day, I don't really know yet, but in my condo shooting things in low-light where I was hoping to see the gains, it was just noisy. I'll leave it off by default... lateral.

Do you have a few examples? I actually like to work with noise, so if it draws it well, that is actually a huge plus for me. I don't like to artificially add it in post, but rather just bring out what is captured by the frame.

thePiRaTE!! · 03-08-2008, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by nostatic

Do you have a few examples? I actually like to work with noise, so if it draws it well, that is actually a huge plus for me. I don't like to artificially add it in post, but rather just bring out what is captured by the frame.

Heres the actual link to the thread I mentioned earlier - https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/19149-k20d-dynamic-range-enlargement.html

I have to take the K20 back today to swap for a new body because of the dead pixel but I'm going to stop in a park on the way, do a little shooting and decide if I'll come back out of the store with a replacement body or the DA*300 and just stick with the K10. Will let you know.

roscot · 03-08-2008, 08:31 AM

Thanks for the response. I think I'll hold off a while on this one, and see what else is in the pipe line. Besides, I really have no budget for a new body for the first half of this year.

Thanks again, and please keep us posted as you get more experience with the camera.

03-07-2008, 07:48 AM	#1
dazman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,949	New Pentax lenses? K20D v K10D? Hi All, After searching through pages and pages of posts trying to find the answer to my questions & not having any success, I'm going to have to ask a couple of questions that have no doubt been asked/answered previously...Sorry! The Pentax 17-70??? Is there a release date? What is the expected price? The Long rumoured Pentax 60-250...release date? Price? Pentax 55-300? As above Lastly...I live in Australia and was going to buy the K10D for AUS$1100 body only (avg. retail price in Oz), but with the release of the K20D and it's price tag only an extra AUS $400 = AUS$1500 body only (not as big a jump in price compared to you all in the States...God bless the weak US $) I'm having a hard time deciding on which one to buy? This will be my 1st d-slr which I'll be using for traveling, have a passion for night/low light photography and whatever else catches my eye! Are the new features & improvements in the K20D something a newbie like me will appreciate and benefit for having & paid an extra $400 to have? I've handled and had a good play with both cameras...the current leader is K20D...no big surprise there! If you were in my shoes which camera would you buy?...and why? Regards Daz

03-07-2008, 02:29 PM	#8
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by roentarre Are you serious? Leica is definitely amazing on films. Seriously, this is a bit of overstatement. If you line up all the p&s and Nikon D3 images resized for web format, they probably all look the same. This is unfair to blame k10d for inferior images. Well, here is my reality. I shot in hk recently with my Leica D-Lux3 and the K10d: hk08 - Page 1 Very few of the K10d shots were "good" according to my eye (only one or two of those are from the K10d iirc). Now I will take all the blame for it, as it could just be that I didn't know my way around the camera well enough. But in the end it doesn't matter...if I get an image with one tool and not another one, then I either have to be willing to work with/around the second tool, or try another one. I don't pixel peep. I take photos. For me in this instance the K10d wasn't happening. That doesn't mean it isn't a fine camera...it just means that it didn't work for me. I had better luck with my old D70 comparing dslr to dslr shots but the glass was different (I think the older Nikkor 105mm micro blows the Pentax 100mm macro out of the water). Again, it may mean that I just didn't take enough time to warm to the K10d...but it is what it is. Also, note that I didn't "blame" the K10d for the images. I just said that in my hands and in my opinion my Leica p&s outperformed it. To me, performance means the end result...the shot (and not of newspaper or a brick wall...well, unless the brick wall is really interesting) Last edited by nostatic; 03-07-2008 at 02:40 PM.

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03-07-2008, 08:02 AM	#2
Kguru Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Perth - WestAust Posts: 602	As you described, the K10D is way way overpriced in Aust (A$1100 vs $600 in US) so I would not buy it new here. My choice would be K20D here, or K10D from B&H shipped to Aust (if still available), or one of the "as-new" K10Ds that are bound to appear in droves soon for around $500.

03-07-2008, 09:10 AM	#3
Mechan1k Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 2,891	With the way the Aussie dollar is at the moment ... It's a great time to buy from the US. I just don't have the cash at the moment to do so.

03-07-2008, 09:11 AM	#4
thePiRaTE!! Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 942	If I were starting all over again, knowing what I know now, it would really depend on my overall budget more than anything if I'd bother with the K20. I just got mine and I'm in the process of getting scientific just to tell if its better OR WORSE than my K10. The more I play with it, the more I think the new sensor is a lateral move. It has its ups, but a lot of them seem to be coming with gotchas performance wise. For the price, it honestly seems to me that the K10 is again proving to be a far better value for the current money. With that choice made, I tried the new 200 while in the shop and was very pleasantly surprised at the SDM. Quick, silent and smooth. The build quality seemed excellent and it is a FF lens, so if things ever go that way, you're 'future-proof'. I look forward to the 60-250 and the 300 as well. I just hope that the 60-250 takes it cues more from the 200 and 300 then the earlier DA* in the good/bad copy ratio dept. I hope holding it back meant it got all the R&D it needed.

03-07-2008, 10:21 AM	#5
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by thePiRaTE!! It has its ups, but a lot of them seem to be coming with gotchas performance wise. what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high...

03-07-2008, 12:26 PM	#6
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	I'm pondering the move myself, what kind of performance hits are you seeing?

03-07-2008, 02:18 PM	#7
roentarre Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 11,783	Originally posted by nostatic what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high... Are you serious? Leica is definitely amazing on films. Seriously, this is a bit of overstatement. If you line up all the p&s and Nikon D3 images resized for web format, they probably all look the same. This is unfair to blame k10d for inferior images.

03-07-2008, 04:24 PM	#9
antman New Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: melbourne Posts: 11	Prices are quite a bit lower than that by about $100-200 at least...

03-07-2008, 06:55 PM	#10
thePiRaTE!! Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 942	Originally posted by nostatic what are some of the gotchas? I returned my K10d because it wasn't outperforming my Leica p&s, and have been pondering a K20d. But part of me says to just get a D300 instead. The problem is the cost of the good Nikkor glass is wicked high... Originally posted by roscot I'm pondering the move myself, what kind of performance hits are you seeing? I posted to a thread in Pentax news and rumours regarding expanded dynamic range. I held hope that it might be a real plus in the low-light dept in conjunction with higher ISO, but my initial (and barely scientific at this point, granted) opinion is that it adds visible noise to shots over ISO 200. Maybe it'll be good outdoors at day, I don't really know yet, but in my condo shooting things in low-light where I was hoping to see the gains, it was just noisy. I'll leave it off by default... lateral. I read about HDR in camera, but its a JPEG only thing... I guess it won't change the way I do things... lateral. The screen seems to show noise a lot more visibly than the K10 did and I'm still trying to figure out if thats because the ISO performance isn't really all that or if the screen is perhaps of higher res and shows more. Its disconcerting, but it doesn't seem to impact the images once seen in PS, but it means I have to get used to accepting a level of noise on screen I was used to deleting on sight with the K10... plus? minus? ISO 3200 is not useable if you care about image quality. 6400 comes disabled (for a good reason judging by 3200). I don't mean to pee all over the thing, I did buy it, and will keep it, but I just felt let down based on my expectations for a _big_ improvement. K20 shots actually look noisier on its back screen vs equivalent ISO K10 shots do on its own back-screen. I'm confused by this and hope to hear a reason I can feel good about. Last but not least my copy came with a dead pixel. Luckily, The Camera Store here in town is awesome and just said bring it back for a swap. That could happen with anything, but while I was pixel peeping the noise I found that too and it didn't improve my outlook. Anyways, you asked! Those are my reasons for saying the K10 is a better value for todays money. I'll keep on testing in wider environments this weekend. I'm sure I'll find a reason why its worth the extra 600, heh. My negative side hopes I'm not simply funding R&D on the new sensor line which has yet to reap the benefits.

03-07-2008, 07:28 PM	#11
twinda1 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 142	Originally posted by nostatic Well, here is my reality. I shot in hk recently with my Leica D-Lux3 and the K10d: hk08 - Page 1 I saw your gallery before, and I like it. Are you sure it's not the rendering characteristics of small sensors cameras that you like? I browse a lot of Ricoh GRD (another fine camera) galleries and, speaking in generalities, your photos have the same "look".

03-07-2008, 08:21 PM	#12
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by twinda1 I saw your gallery before, and I like it. Are you sure it's not the rendering characteristics of small sensors cameras that you like? I browse a lot of Ricoh GRD (another fine camera) galleries and, speaking in generalities, your photos have the same "look". Thanks for the kind words. I've wondered the same thing, and have pondered buying a GRD2, largely based on the work of Mitch Elland and a few others who are on the getdpi forums. I have always shot more towards the abstract/macro side of things, but have evolved recently into more street scene stuff and b&w. I actually like noise/grain if it looks "right" (to me). It is true that the different sensor sizes seem to "draw" differently. Sometimes I wonder if I need a dslr at all...but there are times that I need more flexibility and capability. I really want to play with an M8, but at $5K for the body and at least $2K/lens....well, lets just say that I'd have to be dead sure that I loved working with rangefinders. Maybe I should pick up a cheap film version and do the experiment. But even then you never know until you get the particular digital incarnation. And there is no way i'm going back to shooting film as much as I love the look. Over the past couple years I did produce some shots I really like with the D70/105micro combination. I was hoping to exceed that with the K10d/100mm macro setup but it didn't stick with me first go 'round. But there is something to the Pentax vibe and I do like the ergonomics and UI of the camera. Hence wanting to check the K20d, and my asking about what the "gotchas" are.

03-07-2008, 08:23 PM	#13
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	Originally posted by thePiRaTE!! I posted to a thread in Pentax news and rumours regarding expanded dynamic range. I held hope that it might be a real plus in the low-light dept in conjunction with higher ISO, but my initial (and barely scientific at this point, granted) opinion is that it adds visible noise to shots over ISO 200. Maybe it'll be good outdoors at day, I don't really know yet, but in my condo shooting things in low-light where I was hoping to see the gains, it was just noisy. I'll leave it off by default... lateral. Do you have a few examples? I actually like to work with noise, so if it draws it well, that is actually a huge plus for me. I don't like to artificially add it in post, but rather just bring out what is captured by the frame.

03-08-2008, 07:31 AM	#14
thePiRaTE!! Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 942	Originally posted by nostatic Do you have a few examples? I actually like to work with noise, so if it draws it well, that is actually a huge plus for me. I don't like to artificially add it in post, but rather just bring out what is captured by the frame. Heres the actual link to the thread I mentioned earlier - https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/19149-k20d-dynamic-range-enlargement.html I have to take the K20 back today to swap for a new body because of the dead pixel but I'm going to stop in a park on the way, do a little shooting and decide if I'll come back out of the store with a replacement body or the DA*300 and just stick with the K10. Will let you know.

03-08-2008, 08:31 AM	#15
roscot Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Virginia Beach VA USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,363	Thanks for the response. I think I'll hold off a while on this one, and see what else is in the pipe line. Besides, I really have no budget for a new body for the first half of this year. Thanks again, and please keep us posted as you get more experience with the camera.