Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-05-2013, 06:04 AM   #76
Banned




Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 390
QuoteOriginally posted by Eulogy Quote
Correct, and incorrect at the same time. I was confused by this at first too, until I dug a little deeper(Past the wikipedia link below), only to find that big businesses always trump the small guys in the US.(And several other nations) The policies in other areas are more towards market freedom, but as a result, prices go higher.(The ultimate way to prevent cheap sales) I know this is the case in Canada as of 2009, it's illegal to implement such a pricing policy(Thus why ProDigital2000 is able to trump US competition on prices for the most part, they move so many units, that they're able to purchase at a lower rate than most[Not as low as US sellers, but again, they're not bound to sell at a minimum price], and as such, can sell them for cheap.); As it's basically price fixing. EU nations have similar policies.

It's legal to terminate sales to a company for any reason, including if they violate your suggested retail price. Illegal to say that "Can't sell it below ____", perfectly legal to say "We won't sell anyone these anymore if we find you sold them below _____". Shady Capitalism at it's best.

"While vertical price agreements remained taboo, in 1919 the Supreme Court in United States v. Colgate & Co., recognized the manufacturer's right to deal with whomever it wanted, and as importantly, its right to refuse to deal. This distinction allowed manufacturers to announce terms under which they would deal with their resellers and then refuse to deal with those who failed to comply. Colgate's progeny in 1984 further built upon this right in Monsanto Co. v. Spray-Rite Service Corp., stating that, "under Colgate, the manufacturer can announce its re-sale prices in advance and refuse to deal with those who fail to comply, and a distributor is free to acquiesce to the manufacturer's demand in order to avoid termination"."

It's all available for viewing here: Unilateral policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TLDR: It's like someone saying "I can sell you Oranges for $12/dozen." Then they shout in no general direction "All oranges I sell must be resold at $15/Dozen or more!". If they find you later selling them for $13/Doz, they can simply refuse to sell you more.(Albeit those are some rather expensive oranges)
I understand what you're saying, and agree that if you don't like what someone is selling your product for, you can stop selling it to them, but it isn't that simple for big businesses such as Pentax and Adorama. You don't just call Pentax and say I want to be an authorized seller, send me 100 of everything, There are contracts involved, and while I'm no lawyer, my guess is they don't actually specify "sell it for this much, or we won't sell to you anymore". In a good partnership both the manufacturer AND seller will make money, so if the manufacturer raises their price, the seller must do the same to maintain THEIR profit margin. Thus, Adorama, and others, raise their selling price accordingly. It's not, as you stated, because of pressure from Pentax, it's to maintain their profit margin on any particular item. They're still free to sell for less, but will make less profit doing so, not a smart way to run a business.

05-05-2013, 09:44 AM   #77
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 631
QuoteOriginally posted by Al_Kahollick Quote
I understand what you're saying, and agree that if you don't like what someone is selling your product for, you can stop selling it to them, but it isn't that simple for big businesses such as Pentax and Adorama. You don't just call Pentax and say I want to be an authorized seller, send me 100 of everything, There are contracts involved, and while I'm no lawyer, my guess is they don't actually specify "sell it for this much, or we won't sell to you anymore". In a good partnership both the manufacturer AND seller will make money, so if the manufacturer raises their price, the seller must do the same to maintain THEIR profit margin. Thus, Adorama, and others, raise their selling price accordingly. It's not, as you stated, because of pressure from Pentax, it's to maintain their profit margin on any particular item. They're still free to sell for less, but will make less profit doing so, not a smart way to run a business.
They don't tell BH or Adorama directly. It has to be a general price shift(Probably why BH didn't change prices, as they were on Holiday) for all resellers. Contracts can be involved, but either party is still entitled to end trades at any point. The price generally doesn't change for the suppliers, they save those sort of tactics for Int'l sales.
05-05-2013, 02:13 PM   #78
Banned




Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 390
QuoteOriginally posted by Eulogy Quote
They don't tell BH or Adorama directly. It has to be a general price shift(Probably why BH didn't change prices, as they were on Holiday) for all resellers. Contracts can be involved, but either party is still entitled to end trades at any point. The price generally doesn't change for the suppliers, they save those sort of tactics for Int'l sales.
In your first post about this matter you say "Technically speaking, if this is a Min. sale price hike by Pentax USA, it's not Adorama's fault. If a company threatens to cease ties with you unless you sell this product at a minimum price of _____, you're going to do it."

From PentaxForums.com: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/223525-insane-...#ixzz2SSDJx6Rz

Essentially you say it's Pentax forcing them to raise their prices, now you say they don't, well, which is it??

I have over 30 yrs. experience in retail and distribution, I know a little how things work there, and while you can back out at any time, there ARE consequences to breaking contracts.

All I'm saying is Pentax has the right to charge whatever they want for their product, resellers also have that right, but it's foolish to sell something for less or equal to what you'll pay to replace that item, hence the price hikes by Adorama, B+H, or Sid's Corner Camera shop, whoever sells Pentax products is free to charge what they want. To suggest Adorama or any other camera store is being pressured by Pentax (or any other company for that matter) into raising prices is asinine, the pressure comes from within from owners and / or stockholders to make a profit.

In short, technically speaking, it's really nobody's fault the prices are rising, if you must place blame, put it on market researchers that told the Board the market will support higher prices!
05-05-2013, 02:29 PM   #79
Veteran Member
Docrwm's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Somewhere in the Southern US
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 11,275
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Al_Kahollick Quote
In your first post about this matter you say "Technically speaking, if this is a Min. sale price hike by Pentax USA, it's not Adorama's fault. If a company threatens to cease ties with you unless you sell this product at a minimum price of _____, you're going to do it."

From PentaxForums.com: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/223525-insane-...#ixzz2SSDJx6Rz

Essentially you say it's Pentax forcing them to raise their prices, now you say they don't, well, which is it??

I have over 30 yrs. experience in retail and distribution, I know a little how things work there, and while you can back out at any time, there ARE consequences to breaking contracts.

All I'm saying is Pentax has the right to charge whatever they want for their product, resellers also have that right, but it's foolish to sell something for less or equal to what you'll pay to replace that item, hence the price hikes by Adorama, B+H, or Sid's Corner Camera shop, whoever sells Pentax products is free to charge what they want. To suggest Adorama or any other camera store is being pressured by Pentax (or any other company for that matter) into raising prices is asinine, the pressure comes from within from owners and / or stockholders to make a profit.

In short, technically speaking, it's really nobody's fault the prices are rising, if you must place blame, put it on market researchers that told the Board the market will support higher prices!
Such decisions are always the fault of the company and its executives, because they ultimately have the authority to make those decisions regardless of what led them to make the decision.

05-05-2013, 02:34 PM   #80
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Fredericton, New Brunswick
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 631
QuoteOriginally posted by Al_Kahollick Quote
In your first post about this matter you say "Technically speaking, if this is a Min. sale price hike by Pentax USA, it's not Adorama's fault. If a company threatens to cease ties with you unless you sell this product at a minimum price of _____, you're going to do it."

From PentaxForums.com: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/223525-insane-...#ixzz2SSDJx6Rz

Essentially you say it's Pentax forcing them to raise their prices, now you say they don't, well, which is it??

I have over 30 yrs. experience in retail and distribution, I know a little how things work there, and while you can back out at any time, there ARE consequences to breaking contracts.

All I'm saying is Pentax has the right to charge whatever they want for their product, resellers also have that right, but it's foolish to sell something for less or equal to what you'll pay to replace that item, hence the price hikes by Adorama, B+H, or Sid's Corner Camera shop, whoever sells Pentax products is free to charge what they want. To suggest Adorama or any other camera store is being pressured by Pentax (or any other company for that matter) into raising prices is asinine, the pressure comes from within from owners and / or stockholders to make a profit.

In short, technically speaking, it's really nobody's fault the prices are rising, if you must place blame, put it on market researchers that told the Board the market will support higher prices!
No need to try and pull rank. I'm not a marketing consultant, I'm just stating what I've come to understand. It's not asinine to suggest such a policy either, thus why I recommended you view the Colgate cases. Different product, similar tactics.

As previously mentioned, in the end, this is a Pentax USA marketing problem, caused by Pentax USA execs.

Last edited by Eulogy; 05-05-2013 at 11:08 PM.
05-05-2013, 03:06 PM   #81
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,326
Whether we like it or not, whether we think it is fair or we don't, whether we think it is legal or illegal (it isn't, Nikon does it too), the problem isn't the prices they're charging today. The problem is the way Hoya let Ned Bunnell abuse the Pentax Brand in the USA by underpricing and cheapening the brand before Ricoh bought it.

This is not a Ricoh problem, nor is it a Pentax Ricoh Imaging problem. It is a Pentax Ricoh Imaging Americas Corp. problem. USA Pentax. Nothing else. Fixing the brand in the United States.

See my post in the other thread for what I think they are doing, and where I ask what you (collectively, not any poster personally) would do differently to fix the brand in the United States. See also my post about the Q Discussion I had with Jim Malcolm about the brand, the brand identity and what he IS doing to fix the brand.

I'm looking for positive suggestions, not knee-jerk complaints about legal price increases.
05-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #82
Veteran Member
bossa's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4,545
I was told by a Pentax rep here (Australia) a few weeks ago that his company (CR Kennedy) can only state the recommended price but in no way are they legally allowed to tell anyone at which price to actually sell an item. He also told me that he could go to prison for demanding a store sell at a certain price.
05-05-2013, 04:05 PM   #83
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,326
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I was told by a Pentax rep here (Australia) a few weeks ago that his company (CR Kennedy) can only state the recommended price but in no way are they legally allowed to tell anyone at which price to actually sell an item. He also told me that he could go to prison for demanding a store sell at a certain price.
With all due respect since you make good posts and I like reading them, what has that to do with James Malcolm, US sales practices and rebuilding the Pentax brand, post-Hoya / Ned Bunnell?

05-05-2013, 05:14 PM   #84
Senior Member
jeffw's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Rhode Island
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 181
Local lens prices

A local brick and mortar chain here in the NE has the Tamron 18-270 listed as a show special after discounts , instant rebates and mail in rebates for $346.99 USD ! Pentax has the same rebadged lens listed at $799.99 at B and H . WOW, Pentax owners are not feeling the love.
05-05-2013, 05:29 PM   #85
Veteran Member
bossa's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4,545
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
With all due respect since you make good posts and I like reading them, what has that to do with James Malcolm, US sales practices and rebuilding the Pentax brand, post-Hoya / Ned Bunnell?
I'm just offering some perspective. The prices everyone on here are whinging about are exactly the prices we Australians have had all along and "The Brand" is no better for them - over here.
05-05-2013, 05:32 PM   #86
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,326
QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I'm just offering some perspective. The prices everyone on here are whinging about are exactly the prices we Australians have had all along and "The Brand" is no better for them - over here.
OK - missed that last part. I've read the "stories" about C. R. Kennedy (who I don't believe are a division of PRI, but are a Distributor, correct? That's what Ned Bunnell turned Pentax USA into - a Distributor).
05-05-2013, 06:01 PM   #87
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,002
To those in places where the prices for Pentax lenses are already high, what is the Canon and Nikon situation? Are those also high relative to USA? (If this was discussed above already, I apologize -- don't remember it being.)
05-05-2013, 06:11 PM   #88
Banned




Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Charleston & Pittsburgh
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,683
QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
To those in places where the prices for Pentax lenses are already high, what is the Canon and Nikon situation? Are those also high relative to USA? (If this was discussed above already, I apologize -- don't remember it being.)
It's difficult to compare lenses between Pentax, Canon, and Nikon. Because the lens selection from Pentax is basically limited to about 50 out of 90+ lens items available in PK that are full frame; which includes third party ones. Whereas most of the Canon and Nikon lines are full frame.

To compare a non full frame lens to a full framer simply wouldn't work out all that well.
05-05-2013, 06:38 PM   #89
Pentaxian




Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 5,002
QuoteOriginally posted by Medium FormatPro Quote
It's difficult to compare lenses between Pentax, Canon, and Nikon. Because the lens selection from Pentax is basically limited to about 50 out of 90+ lens items available in PK that are full frame; which includes third party ones. Whereas most of the Canon and Nikon lines are full frame.

To compare a non full frame lens to a full framer simply wouldn't work out all that well.
But we can compare Nikon Europe to Nikon USA, etc. It seems that people are saying the Pentax USA prices are just catching up to what they have already been for sometime in Europe, Australia, etc. I'm just wondering if comparing like-to-like in the Canon and Nikon world it is the same situation.

We can also compare equivalent dollar amounts for among different systems. If I spent $2000 on Pentax gear in the USA, what could I get? And if I spent the equivalent money in Australia? If I spent it on Nikon instead, same thing. Is the whole market more expensive in other countries, or just Pentax?
05-05-2013, 06:56 PM   #90
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,723
QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
I'm just wondering if comparing like-to-like in the Canon and Nikon world it is the same situation.
Yes, this was asked and answered on the other thread:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/223517-pentax-lens-pri...ml#post2371645
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
k-mount, lens, pentax, pentax lens, slr lens
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One year anniversary - is Pentax unilateral pricing (MAP) on lenses working? Gray Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 22 04-07-2013 05:26 AM
Pentax lens pricing dilemma FireDog Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 6 08-12-2012 11:49 AM
Canon 40mm Pancake: Okay, Pentax, time to wake up on lens pricing! mattdm Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 136 07-05-2012 12:52 PM
Pricing help needed on A* 300mm f2.8 lens chrisbrogden Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 8 11-06-2010 04:47 AM
New Pentax or move on? kinsale Pentax DSLR Discussion 22 08-27-2010 02:42 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:22 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top