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05-19-2013, 09:16 AM   #1
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Am I Crazy (5dii just for T/S)?

Hey everyone

I have been interested in Tilt Shift photography ever since I started shooting landscapes, however, there are no tilt AND shift lenses for Pentax. The new Samyang may solve this but it would be too narrow (35mm equiv) on my K5iis. This is why I'm thinking about buying a used 5Dmkii and a Mark ONE 24mm TS-E lens. I could pair a new Pentax FF w/ the Samyang, but the ff will be out of my price range and the samyang is twice the price of a used 24L1. Is this the easiest way for a Pentaxian to get into FF T/S?

05-19-2013, 09:31 AM   #2
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That sounds pretty drastic.

Tilt shift lenses for K-mount (and m42) do exist. Schneider-Kreuznach makes them (expensive, high quality), as does Arsat (not as expensive, Soviet quality). Lens baby has some pseudo-T/S, but it has a very specific use.
Then there are adapters. Quite a few companies make adapters that use 645 (and 67, and pentacon six) lenses and put them onto Kmount. I'm not sure about their names, but a quick search on these forums should give you some ideas. There are even some people who made DIY TS adapters, but I'm not sure how successful they are.

All I'm saying is, the choice isn't as limited as it may seem, even though Pentax doesn't make any TS lenses
05-19-2013, 09:34 AM   #3
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He's looking for something close to fullframe &24mm... which means his options are limited. 15mm on the APS-C is tough with T/S. I'm not aware of any solution.
05-19-2013, 09:42 AM   #4
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This looks like about the best you can do...

One of these.....
SMC Pentax-FA 645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF] Reviews - 645 Wide-Angle Primes - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

and one of these

MIREX-Adapter f

You need to put it on a K-01 to get full functionality.

The advantage is you will be able to use it if Pentax ever comes out with an FF camera.

The disadvantage is you want to get to 25 mm you have to get one of these...at $5000. But the 35 mm is supposed to be a great lens. PENTAX - PENTAX ADDS SECOND LENS FOR 645D MEDIUM FORMAT

This is all theory for me, I'm still waiting to see if anyone has done this.

05-19-2013, 09:53 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This looks like about the best you can do...

One of these.....
SMC Pentax-FA 645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF] Reviews - 645 Wide-Angle Primes - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

and one of these

MIREX-Adapter f

You need to put it on a K-01 to get full functionality.

The advantage is you will be able to use it if Pentax ever comes out with an FF camera.

The disadvantage is you want to get to 25 mm you have to get one of these...at $5000. But the 35 mm is supposed to be a great lens. PENTAX - PENTAX ADDS SECOND LENS FOR 645D MEDIUM FORMAT

This is all theory for me, I'm still waiting to see if anyone has done this.

That's $2k or so, depending on the cost of the lens, compared to the $1k of the samsung, and is 35mm, when he said that 24mm on APS-C was too long for his use.
05-19-2013, 10:15 AM   #6
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Ya he's stuck.... there is no good Pentax solution that I know of.

Mark ONE 24mm TS-E lens. 2,399 used 5D mk II say $1500. That's 5K. Exactly why, I haven't chosen to experiment with this option, yet.
But if he's willing to settle for 35 mm, and hope Pentax comes out with an FF. Who knows.....Samyung isn't comimg out with a Pentax mount so the minimum cost for the Samyang with the mk II is still over 2.5K. If you can't get what you want, sometimes you settle for less. For myself... all I need to use my Pentax K-01 and 645 55mm lens is the Mirex adapter. Less than a K I'm guessing. YOu can never know too much.
05-19-2013, 10:17 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by gooseta Quote
Hey everyone

I have been interested in Tilt Shift photography ever since I started shooting landscapes, however, there are no tilt AND shift lenses for Pentax. The new Samyang may solve this but it would be too narrow (35mm equiv) on my K5iis. This is why I'm thinking about buying a used 5Dmkii and a Mark ONE 24mm TS-E lens. I could pair a new Pentax FF w/ the Samyang, but the ff will be out of my price range and the samyang is twice the price of a used 24L1. Is this the easiest way for a Pentaxian to get into FF T/S?
IMO if you're serious about shooting T/S, then getting a proper setup is key. Get a 5DII and the $1000 Samyang lens for starters:
Samyang 24mm f/3.5 ED AS UMC Tilt-Shift Lens for Canon SYTS24-C

Adam
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05-19-2013, 10:20 AM   #8
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You should note however, the overhang that accommodates the flash on any Pentax besides a K-01 will limit the functionality of the tilt shift mechanism. You'll notice that the overhang on the MkII is less extreme. That means more possible upward tilt. The K-5iis is not the design you want for this type of use. The K-01 does have a less dense AA filter than a K-5, you might find it acceptable.

05-19-2013, 10:41 AM   #9
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The ts 24mm sells for about 500-600 (canon 24 mm ts | eBay)
Do you think the samyang would give better iq?
05-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #10
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I too am waiting for the 24mmT/S from Samyang, but in the mean time, there are already some high quality T/S lenses for Pentax.

Schneider PC TS Makro-Symmar 90mm f/4.5 Lens 06-1066461 B&H

Schneider PC TS Super-Angulon 50mm f/2.8 Lens 06-1066458 B&H
05-19-2013, 12:24 PM   #11
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You are crazy.

Adam has a good suggestion. Another possibility might be to buy a EOS film camera (they are cheap) and rent a T/S lens to match to see if the combo works up to your expectations. Or rent a both the 5Dii and lens. If you like the T/S, film might be the most cost-effective way to go (or not).

Or...you can do as I did and buy a 4x5 view camera and shoot 120 roll film with a 6x7 holder. That should give you the full T/S experience.


Steve

(...the hidden cost of film work is the gear to digitize $$...)
05-19-2013, 12:30 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Less than a K I'm guessing.
The Pentax-FA 645 35/3.5 goes for a premium price (the 55 is really too long, even for FF). I would suggest more than a K.


Steve


(...currently one on eBay (BIN) at $1790 USD...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 05-19-2013 at 12:41 PM.
05-19-2013, 12:36 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
I too am waiting for the 24mmT/S from Samyang, but in the mean time, there are already some high quality T/S lenses for Pentax.

Schneider PC TS Makro-Symmar 90mm f/4.5 Lens 06-1066461 B&H

Schneider PC TS Super-Angulon 50mm f/2.8 Lens 06-1066458 B&H
Or the HartBlei/Zeiss SuperRotator 40/4

Hartblei Optics by Carl Zeiss 4/40 IF TS


...if you need to know the price, you obviously can't afford it!!!


Steve
05-19-2013, 12:38 PM   #14
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...or...if you are wanting the lens for landscape work, there are always the usual software solutions, e.g. focus stacking for near/far and stitching for shift.


Steve
05-19-2013, 12:48 PM - 1 Like   #15
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I have a K 28/3.5 Shift lens and have used it a reasonable amount (its not going anywhere nor looking for a new home). I have also used it in ways that are somewhat off nominal - essentially producing a 4x5 (stitched) resulting image, based on how the lens operates (across the clock points as the lens rotates) Yes, the 28mm is a bit narrow for use on an APS-C cropped sensor, so you are not able to receive its true capability. It is also a shift only and not a tilt/shift lens, so some may view this as a limitation.

I really wanted this for the shift capability and was not that interested in tilt. I use the shift for stitched panoramas. One aspect that folks miss, is the combination of both horizontal and vertical stitching into a single image, rather than just a single axis.

I have thought through this this problem a number of times and there are really no good solutions for a number of reasons.....
  • Lens design - For both the shift and tilt operations - and especially the combined operations, the lens needs to be designed optically to have superior edge and corners, essentially across the entire lens, rather than just at the center. You are shifting/tilting the lens off its optical center so that it is positioned over the sensor such that the lens' edges and corners are closer to the sensor's center (then normal), and thus the projected image from the lens on to the sensor needs to have a high image quality. Also, as the lens is shifted over the sensor, the projected image circle needs to be substantially larger, so that the sensor will be covered at all shift points and extremes.
  • Image on the Sensor - the K 28 shift is designed for film. In fact, I somewhat doubt that you can design an perfect T/S lens for digital sensors. What am I talking about. Film as a sensor had an chemical emulsion surface as a photo receptor (essentially its a pretty nice flat surface receiving the light). Digital sensors, have the photo receptors down at the bottom of pits or dwells (think of dimples on a golf ball), with potentially a micro lens cap over the top. What this does is to essentially optimize the light rays coming into the dwell from a perpendicular angle - i.e., straight from above. So light rays coming in from the side, will be coming in at an angle - which may be deflected away by the depth of the dwell or the micro lens caps of the photo receptors on the digital sensor. So, what does this mean - when you have the lens shifted over to one side, the light coming through the lens edge (which is now over the center of the digital sensor) needs to fall on and illuminate the far edge of the digital sensor (thus coming in at an angle). Essentially the quality of the light making it over to the far side of the sensor is less than optimal.
So, in putting all of this together, for a reasonably wide Tilt/Shift lens, you are going to need an optical design that is pretty perfect across the entire projection circle of the lens on to the sensor. That means very low distortion. That brings us to the 24 to 35mm focal length range (based on the 135 format) that is used for Tilt/Shift lens. This focal length range is the bottom (or widest) you can really go with out having to accept large amounts of distortion. Going wider, you start to bring in ever greater amounts of distortion (especially across the edges and corners).

How is this distortion going to affect the resulting combined image when stitched. Well, let's think about this for a minute. Let's keep it simple - a 3 frame stitch, 1 normal image (lens center on the sensor's center), and 2 shifted images one to the right and one to the left. The two shifted images are going to have distortion to the left on the left of center shift, and distortion to the right on the right of center shift. When you take and stitch or combine these images together, you can have a mess.

For Tilt/Shift lenses using both tilting and shifting, you are essentially going to be taking a single image, where the optics in the lens does all of the work. You are going to possibly need a larger image circle to cover the sensor, and you are going to need to have a superior optical lens design across the entire lens because of the off center positioning potential of the lens over the sensor. You are also going to need as little distortion from the lens as possible (again that 24 to 25mm focal length comes into play), as you do not want to add in edge or corner distortion to your perspective correcting lens.

So in the 645 medium format, the 35mm focal length lens equates to something like a 14mm lens on an APS-C sensor format. Therefore the solution is a larger sensor format, so that you are able to maintain a reasonable focal length (24-28mm and longer) which controls the distortion naturally, go to a larger lens surface to work with (yes, more expensive glass), along with a longer registration distance in which to design the mechanical tilt and shifting mechanisms.

Another solution is a view camera, where tilting and shifting are essentially built into the camera's mechanical design.

The last solution that I can come up with is a set of bellows that can be attached to an FF or APS-C body with a lens on the other end. You will need a set of bellows that are capable of both tilting and shifting - they are available. However, by the very nature of the bellows, you are adding focal length, great for macro, not so good for wide angle landscapes or architecture.


Last edited by interested_observer; 05-19-2013 at 01:15 PM. Reason: some small edits
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