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06-04-2013, 09:27 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I have a question, just for those that are heavily or even moderately invested in Pentax. If I could give you every dime you had invested in Pentax gear, at what you paid for it, would you take it and switch to something else? This would seem to be the ultimate test of how we really see the situation? Honest answers please.......it's OK to be on the Dark Side for a few minutes!

Regards!
Are you serious?! What kind of a question is that?!

Why, YES! I don't even want the exact change.. Maybe lose 10%, it's ok... Haha!

06-04-2013, 11:48 PM   #17
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Up untill now, that's 100% Of the answers indicate wanting to switch if it weren't for the investment holding them back.

Rupert, you could make a very popular seperate thread on this.
06-05-2013, 12:01 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Up untill now, that's 100% Of the answers indicate wanting to switch if it weren't for the investment holding them back.

Rupert, you could make a very popular seperate thread on this.
Dude, don't state this... You are gonna attract fanboys who will claim there isn't a "need" for FF or whatever else that're being offered by competitors..
Wanna bet? Start a poll and you'll see all the fanboys show up...

Therefore i'd say, just let this "poll" roll, away from their radar...
06-05-2013, 12:24 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by SyncGuy Quote
Dude, don't state this... You are gonna attract fanboys who will claim there isn't a "need" for FF or whatever else that're being offered by competitors..
Wanna bet? Start a poll and you'll see all the fanboys show up...

Therefore i'd say, just let this "poll" roll, away from their radar...
Haha... I'm a fanboy too. Just a fanboy of the category that loves certain Pentax gear enough to want more of it.

06-05-2013, 02:55 AM - 1 Like   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Up untill now, that's 100% Of the answers indicate wanting to switch if it weren't for the investment holding them back.

Rupert, you could make a very popular seperate thread on this.
Let me be the one going against the grain, then, and say NO, I'd not switch.

I've spent years and years getting to know the strengths and weaknesses, the sweet spots, of my lenses - as well as getting familiar with "nature" of the the RAW files that come from my camera bodies, and - of course - the operation of the camera bodies has become second-nature.

I do not know if there's another system having an equivalent to the 15mm Ltd or the 31/1.8 - there may be, of course. Then again, there may not. Taking Rupert's deal would mean I'd have to figure that out. I went with a Pentax body back when I left Olympus, because I wanted a body that could take the 31/1.8.....any system I was to switch to would have to either offer something identical or better.

As would I have to figure out which "dark side system" I'd buy into, and re-learn its quirks and kinks, and retrain my fingers and my workflow, and wrap my brain around new RAW files.....

For what benefit? Well, I'd love a DA 135/1.8 Ltd, but that's all that *I* am personally missing from the Pentax lineup. Of course, others may be missing other bits and pieces, but I'm speaking for only myself

For all the rest, I am a thousand percent certain that the limiting factor in my photography is *me* and not my equipment.

That's not to say that if I was starting completely from scratch, with no a-priori investment in equipment and no previous experience and investment in time of learning - as the snot-nosed teenager I was when I bought my first Olympus OM body - that I would not be able to be happy with any other "dark side system" of the day also. I got to play with a friends Nikon recently for an afternoon (we swapped bodies for an outing, just to see what the other side was like), and my only complaint about that experience was really just "unfamiliarity".

So yeah, it's investment that's holding me to Pentax - but not just of the financial kind.

I hope that PRIC will keep developing the Pentax K-mount line, including FF and APS-C, though I might not be a target customer for an FF body.
06-05-2013, 03:40 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by einstrigger Quote
I'd contend that Nikon's cheap primes are excellent and an awesome value for their performance.
From B&H's current prices:
Nikon 35mm f/1.8g $196.95
Nikon 50mm f/1.8g $216.95
Nikon 85mm f/1.8g $496.95
Pentax 35mm f/2.4 $216.95
Pentax 50mm f/1.8 $246.95
Pentax 77mm f/1.8 $1,046.95 (no 85mm currently manufactured, so this was the closest lens).
The prices don't seem that much different, but when you factor in that Nikon gives you a 5 year warranty versus 1 year with Pentax, it makes you wonder why Pentax isn't cheaper. And then you really wonder when you consider the Nikons above all have SWM for silent focusing versus the old fashioned screw drive of the Pentax lenses
Not only does the Nikon 35mm/50mm/85mm come with 5year warranty and silent af motors and quick-shift, but they also have weather sealed metal mounts and also come with lens hoods and lens pouchs.
Cant say the same for the Pentax 35 and 50!
06-05-2013, 04:56 AM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by tclausen Quote
Well, I'd love a DA 135/1.8 Ltd, but that's all that *I* am personally missing from the Pentax lineup. Of course, others may be missing other bits and pieces, but I'm speaking for only myself
I agree! The lens needs to be small, and it would be cool to see some quirky focal length and aperture numbers, (like 128mm, f/2.4), but that's the only hole in my dream prime setup, too. I moved from Nikon for the Limiteds, superior ergonomics, and SR, all of which remain a real advantage.
06-05-2013, 05:29 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
If I could give you every dime you had invested in Pentax gear, at what you paid for it, would you take it and switch to something else? This would seem to be the ultimate test of how we really see the situation? Honest answers please.......it's OK to be on the Dark Side for a few minutes!
Nope. My Pentax gear does what I want it to, and some of the Pentax "eccentricities" are what made me decide on Pentax in the first place. Pentax is the only one with in-body SR, they're smallish with great ergonomics, and they have the best lens backwards-compatibility out there. Plus, nobody else makes anything like the Q. I don't regret going with Pentax.

06-05-2013, 06:35 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So the cheaper lens @ $250 gives you way more resolution on a D800 than you'd get on any APS-c camera, if you want to max it out and go for the best image quality you're going to pay a lot. So in a way if you own a D800 an 18-35 is a great purchase compared to anything you'd get on APS-c. But if you really want to go top IQ, then it's going to cost you a lot more. So far as I know no APS-c camera has exceeded 3000 lw/ph.
In regards to the Nikon D600/D800 being more "demanding" in terms of lens quality to get the most out of these cameras, I suppose that's partially true....

...the thing I realized though, just from a sensor resolution standpoint, is that the Nikon D800 and Pentax K-5 II BOTH have sensor resolutions (pixel pitch) in the 4-5 micron range.....so at the sensor level, the D800 is really no more demanding of a lens than the K-5 is, the lens simply needs to cover a larger area (which has it's own demands of course).

In the case of the D600..or any of the 20-24mp FF cameras that seem to be in abundance now....they are actually LESS demanding of the optics since the sensor resolution is actually a bit lower than a 15-16mp APS-C sensor. One could definitely argue that getting the absolute best IQ out of, say, a K5 is going to require an investment in premium quality glass same as a D800.

All I know is, when I had a chance to shoot the exact same scene at the same time with my K20D+Tamron 17-50 and a colleague's D800E+Nikkor 24-70 and I looked at the results, I was ready to toss my K20D off the bridge and into the lake that I was photographing. Is a new K5 going to make up that gap in quality between my aging K20D and the D800? I doubt it. And the fact that the D600/D800 are in the $2-3K range, which was unthinkable only a few years ago, only helps to seal the deal. I think what Nikon has done with these two cameras to raise the price/performance bar is truly outstanding.

Terry

Last edited by tlwyse; 06-05-2013 at 06:53 AM.
06-05-2013, 06:59 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
If I could give you every dime you had invested in Pentax gear, at what you paid for it, would you take it and switch to something else?
I wouldn't.

Pentax DSLRs provide amazing value for money with unsurpassed ergonomics and superior build quality. In-body stabilisation and the excellent FA Ltds are further unique selling points for me.

I'm not happy with some of the recent developments -- mainly concerning the American Pentax distributor -- but I wouldn't want any other gear to replace my current cameras and K-mount lenses.
06-05-2013, 07:34 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I have a question, just for those that are heavily or even moderately invested in Pentax. If I could give you every dime you had invested in Pentax gear, at what you paid for it, would you take it and switch to something else? This would seem to be the ultimate test of how we really see the situation? Honest answers please.......it's OK to be on the Dark Side for a few minutes!

Regards!
What kind of question is that? I want them both.... and a 645D. That would be like having to pick between your kids. The thing you have to consider, jsherman has both systems, and he still uses both. He's learned that they both have a place in the world. I'm guessing there's a few other who might be learning that, after they switch.

QuoteOriginally posted by SyncGuy Quote
Dude, don't state this... You are gonna attract fanboys who will claim there isn't a "need" for FF or whatever else that're being offered by competitors..
Wanna bet? Start a poll and you'll see all the fanboys show up...

Therefore i'd say, just let this "poll" roll, away from their radar...
Yes, cause anyone who has different needs than you is a fanboy? That's a fine attitude you have there. "Let"s call other people names."

QuoteOriginally posted by tlwyse Quote
In regards to the Nikon D600/D800 being more "demanding" in terms of lens quality to get the most out of these cameras, I suppose that's partially true....

...the thing I realized though, just from a sensor resolution standpoint, is that the Nikon D800 and Pentax K-5 II BOTH have sensor resolutions (pixel pitch) in the 4-5 micron range.....so at the sensor level, the D800 is really no more demanding of a lens than the K-5 is, the lens simply needs to cover a larger area (which has it's own demands of course).

In the case of the D600..or any of the 20-24mp FF cameras that seem to be in abundance now....they are actually LESS demanding of the optics since the sensor resolution is actually a bit lower than a 15-16mp APS-C sensor. One could definitely argue that getting the absolute best IQ out of, say, a K5 is going to require an investment in premium quality glass same as a D800.

All I know is, when I had a chance to shoot the exact same scene at the same time with my K20D+Tamron 17-50 and a colleague's D800E+Nikkor 24-70 and I looked at the results, I was ready to toss my K20D off the bridge and into the lake that I was photographing. Is a new K5 going to make up that gap in quality between my aging K20D and the D800? I doubt it. And the fact that the D600/D800 are in the $2-3K range, which was unthinkable only a few years ago, only helps to seal the deal. I think what Nikon has done with these two cameras to raise the price/performance bar is truly outstanding.

Terry
I kept my K20D for a few months after Tess got her K-5. Trust me, there is absolutely no comparison in landscapes, between a K20D and K-5. ANd I'm not talking K-5 II or IIs, I'm talking the original K-5. I'm not saying you would not prefer a D800, I'm just saying you need to compare a current camera to a current camera to make that decision. I've seen lots of K20D - K-5 shots taken side by side, and you still would have wanted to throw your K20D into the lake.

As for the lens thing, a D800 with a $250 lens gets you more resolution than a K-5 with $1000 lens. The D800 with a great lens will get you another 10% resolution than a D800 with a cheap lens in terms of resolution, even with a bad lens it's better than anything on APS-c. If resolution is the issue. But on the other hand, a Sigma DP2 Merrill will give you almost the IQ of a D800 in a much smaller package. It won't be as high resolution but it will look just as good... because despite what folks say and imply, resolution is not the be all and end all of IQ.

Last edited by normhead; 06-05-2013 at 07:40 AM.
06-05-2013, 07:39 AM - 2 Likes   #27
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I think the equation is not 1+1 = 2
Its more like 1+ 'me' = ?
The 'me' being each persons preferences for what they want in a system/lens.


The Pentax camera and lenses are often smaller and less encumbering.
I'm no shooter who drives around ignoring the gravity of a D800+Nikon 14-24/2.8+24-70/2.8 combo
I'm a guy on foot and public transport.
Pentax as a smallish, dslr handling/response brand makes sense to me


The screw drive is dependable and less likely to fail.
A Canon lens is toast if the electronics fail (aperture and focus is electronic ).
The Nikon, a bit better, but on-camera lens motor is more likely to fail than screw drive.
Just google for Canikon lens problems with the motor or lens communication and you'd be guaranteed a bunch.

The Pentax lenses are well built and not some 'knocky' plastic like some of the Canikons.
I prefer that.
All this extends to the limiteds and even the legacy lenses.

So in the end, each user has to weigh his/her preferences/needs, and in the end, that bit of cost difference (Pentax vs others) and determine if its something worth it to him or not.

All the systems are a trade-off.
I've mention it here, with examples.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-full-frame/225739-why-full-frame-p...ml#post2398699
We just decide on the trade-offs that we can live with (or don't care about)


If I were to start over, it will still be Pentax as the primary system, but I've learned over time that I don't need some lenses.
I'd probably just get rid of all the FF lenses and use the DA15, 21, DA35, FA50, FA77, DA100WR
Its the lenses and the system philosophy that I like that makes me stick to Pentax.
I also know that my hand gets itchy all the time, so I'd still be multi system Pentax APS-C+ FF (whatever brand) + Sigma SDM1


Someone posted these on the Pentax Singapore Flickr page a few days ago.


more of his shots here...
2013 | 06 | 02 - Q10 by Tiak Siew Sim of <a href="http://www.sim4nee.com" rel="nofollow">www.sim4nee.com</a> - a set on Flickr

Though I don't shoot these genre, I certainly could appreciate how well done they were.
It just hammered into me how far one can go with the knowledge to lighting and photography in general, rather than just think so much about the gear or brand.
(if you follow the link, you'd also find out what he shot with)
06-05-2013, 08:28 AM   #28
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@NormHead:

No dude.. I'm not meaning to say that anyone who has different needs other than mine are fanboys.
It's aimed more at those who states that they don't see an advantage to the faster focusing speed, or more accurate focusing points, the higher numbers of focusing points, or the size of the focusing points, or the flash ecosystem, or the lens diversity, and whatever else that the other camps has..

They're able to list 1,001 reasons for a workaround just so to support the brand. There are what i term as fanboys, and to them I'd say, why bother get anything more than a K1000 or something even more vintage? Go get a workaround to all it's limitations in comparison to a more modern DSLR.

It is the attitude of plain denying that there exists better improvement for the taking..
06-05-2013, 12:09 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by GibbyTheMole Quote
Nope. My Pentax gear does what I want it to, and some of the Pentax "eccentricities" are what made me decide on Pentax in the first place. Pentax is the only one with in-body SR, they're smallish with great ergonomics, and they have the best lens backwards-compatibility out there. Plus, nobody else makes anything like the Q. I don't regret going with Pentax.
Nikon have even better backwards compatibility than pentax fwiw.
06-05-2013, 12:28 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by SyncGuy Quote
@NormHead:

No dude.. I'm not meaning to say that anyone who has different needs other than mine are fanboys.
It's aimed more at those who states that they don't see an advantage to the faster focusing speed, or more accurate focusing points, the higher numbers of focusing points, or the size of the focusing points, or the flash ecosystem, or the lens diversity, and whatever else that the other camps has..

They're able to list 1,001 reasons for a workaround just so to support the brand. There are what i term as fanboys, and to them I'd say, why bother get anything more than a K1000 or something even more vintage? Go get a workaround to all it's limitations in comparison to a more modern DSLR.

It is the attitude of plain denying that there exists better improvement for the taking..
OK, if you shoot mostly landscape and macro.. what is the advantage of faster focussing speed? (Hint, there isn't any, at full light a pentax focuses within .15 second of the fastest Canon, shooting wildlife or sports that might be enough to miss a shot, shooting landscape, not so much.)
If you shoot a lot of manual focus... what is the advantage of faster focusing speed.


What is the advantage of more focusing points? Have you ever seen an independent study recording the actions of photographers in the field that would lead you to believe there is an optimum number of focusing points, and that 11 is not enough, or that more is better? If you don't know how many is too many, you don't know how many is good enough. To assume 11 isn't good enough, well, it's an assumption.)

Have you ever seen a study on lens diversity showing there is an advantage to having as many lenses as possible. Once again what's the magic number, or when is enough, enough.

Workarounds are not to support the brand. Work arounds are because 90% of what you do is this thing for which the camera works great, but then there is this other 10% or 5% or whatever where you might need a work around. You aren't going to probably buy a camera for that last 5% of what you do, so rather than buy a camera suited to that task, you find something that works with what you're got that may not be great , but is manageable.

There's absolutely no reason to bring this kind of negatively to things that aren't the slightest little bit negative. For example, if I need a few hi-res shots, I'll stitch them. That's a workable procedure. But if I get a contract for high-res images and they are going to be 80% of my work, the cost of a D800 or a 645D will be part of the contract price. The fact that I use a work-around doesn't mean I don't know there's better option. It means I don't want any more camera equipment sitting on my shelf that hasn't been used for years. Sometimes "why use more than a K1000?" is a good point.
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