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06-05-2013, 06:56 PM - 1 Like   #16
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That's one nice post there, very interesting thoughts. I agree on much of it and I bet even Pentax do the same. They are running a catching up race but they aren't even close to losing in just yet.

I just want to add a couple of things:
- Ricoh sounds happy with their acquisition and reports huge plans for Pentax.
- Ricoh is a very financially sound company and bigger than Nikon.
- Ricoh got huge and successful development and business departments and seems to want to get Pentax to the same level.
- Pentax is majorly restructuring their marketing departments in America.
- The new CEO of Pentax America tries harder than most to get closer to the customers, eg scheduled calls with customers etc.
- In USA Pentax ads has increased lately if I judge by the reports.
- In Sweden Pentax even has a huge banner on probably the biggest photo website/magazine in the country.
- On my last international flight they had magazines where the whole rear cover was a wet K-30.
- Pentaxs' latest cameras gets praise both from users and press.
- During sales Pentax cameras regularly hits the top sellers lists of big stores.
- Full frame camera development is confirmed from a couple of Pentax Ricoh sources.

This just a few things and I can list more. The future is not as bleak as some makes it out to be. Ricoh and Pentax departments have both reported that Hoya neglected Pentax in many many ways but Ricoh is putting a lot of work into fixing things. I actually find it pretty amazing how they can continue doing pretty well for a small maker despite all the turbulence.

06-05-2013, 07:16 PM   #17
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Boris,

every lens you put on a Pentax DSLR has shake reduction.

Every lens you put on a Pentax DSLR has focus confirmation,
and either auto-focus or trap focus.

Pentax 35mm/APS-C lenses from 1958 to 2013 can be used on Pentax DSLRs.

If you're quick, you can still catch a K-01 to give you
adapter-free mirrorless with any K-mount lens.

And the Q/Q10 make great 5.5x macro- or tele-converters
for your regular K-mount glass.


Enjoy!
06-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #18
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If I had the money? Sure. I would go with Canon/Nikon. They're tried and true, but at that point I would get a FF with a bunch of cool lenses. But Pentax offers amazing value (although prices have jumped lately) and exceptional performance for such a lower price than what you'd pay with Canikon. You really don't lose out on much by going with Pentax, and you end up saving a lot of money.

Pentax is much more of an enthusiast's camera while Canon/Nikon are more aimed towards professionals.
06-05-2013, 07:22 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by NitroDC Quote
more of an enthusiast's camera while Canon/Nikon are more aimed towards professionals.
And soccer moms.......

06-05-2013, 07:30 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by NitroDC Quote
Pentax is much more of an enthusiast's camera while Canon/Nikon are more aimed towards professionals.
I find that statement pretty weird. So a D3000 with a 18-55, 55-300 and a 50/1.8 is more pro than a K-5 with 18-55, 55-300 and a 50/1.8? If so, explain why? If you want to go full frame with the D3000 you will probably have to buy a completely new set of lenses anyway so it can't be that. I see more complete amateurs with a Canon or a Nikon than with a Pentax, Olympus, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji etc so it can't be the logo either.

If I sell my K-5 and all my lenses and get an used D3000 instead I will get loads of money in my pocket.
06-05-2013, 07:45 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I find that statement pretty weird. So a D3000 with a 18-55, 55-300 and a 50/1.8 is more pro than a K-5 with 18-55, 55-300 and a 50/1.8? If so, explain why? If you want to go full frame with the D3000 you will probably have to buy a completely new set of lenses anyway so it can't be that. I see more complete amateurs with a Canon or a Nikon than with a Pentax, Olympus, Sony, Panasonic, Fuji etc so it can't be the logo either.

If I sell my K-5 and all my lenses and get an used D3000 instead I will get loads of money in my pocket.
What I meant was that Nikon and Canon have a massive share in the "professional" market of photography (studio, photogs for hire, etc) while Pentax is all about the enthusiast's experience. Of course, Nikon and Canon also have entry-level cameras but I wasn't even considering those with my statement. Obviously the Pentax kit you laid out is going to be better because (like I said) you get more for your money with Pentax.

However, that being said, you can't deny that Canon and Nikon both have some incredible lenses that Pentax simply doesn't offer. They are crazy expensive, and 90% of enthusiasts won't even lay their hands on them because of the price. What I'm trying to say is that in an ideal world, Pentax would control the entry-level and mid-level/enthusiast market whereas Canon/Nikon would control the professional segment with full frame cameras and expensive lenses. You can certainly be a professional with a Pentax system but will have some trouble in areas like sports and studio photography, where Pentax doesn't exactly shine.

And amateurs all look to Canon and Nikon because they are marketed everywhere, and are available everywhere. Pentax (at least in my experience) is neither of those. What do you expect? It's their own damn fault.
06-05-2013, 07:58 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by NitroDC Quote
However, that being said, you can't deny that Canon and Nikon both have some incredible lenses that Pentax simply doesn't offer. They are crazy expensive, and 90% of enthusiasts won't even lay their hands on them because of the price.
That's where my statement that if you're going pro like that you still need a new system for a huge pile of money, no matter which brand you come from in amateur/enthusiast section. So pro got nothing to do with the brand, it has to do with the pro system you have to build up as you still would have to sell all your lower end gear.

It's almost exactly the same move as going from a Pentax enthusiast/amateur camera to a 645D, sell your old kit and end up with an empty wallet. If you think about that Pentax is more "Pro" due to their medium format option, but I think that is just as false as calling Canikon more "pro".
06-05-2013, 08:05 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Wow, very passionate replies! I kind of thought this would be like kicking the hornet's nest. ....
Your second post is a bit different from your first. I can agree with some of your (or your father's) points, as worded.

Yes, Pentax is not as dominant a player in the market as it previously was. From that perspective, there really is no need to look beyond Canon. As others have pointed out, they make everything from pro-level cameras to everyman's (everymom's?) point and shoot. Pentaxians could pretty much pick up any Canon and start taking good images, even if the ergonomics and user interface are demonstrably worse. Even the K-mount lenses will mount on some bodies, with an adaptor -- and some Canon shooters do this regularly with the FA Ltds.

D'oh, more props for the FA Ltds again.

06-05-2013, 08:19 PM   #24
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I think a lot of interesting points were brought up. With Nikon and Canon having such a huge share of the market and so many lenses available could I almost dare to say that the brands are diluted? This is the result of far reaching marketing. There is probably at least one Nikon and Canon camera for every price segment of the market (in $20 increments ). People buy these cameras almost like a commodity because they are a safe bet. My mother in law wanted a DSLR last year because she thought she deserved one. Which one did she get? A Nikon. Why? Did she do research? No, none at all. It's a good name brand and it allows her to say with some prestige that she has a Nikon. She went to the local Best Buy and got one so fast it would give anyone a nosebleed!

Does Nikon extend this prestige at the extreme upper levels where professionals dwell? Yes, they probably do. Does the resulting quality of the lenses and equipment match up to the prestige? Seemingly yes.

Now I compare this to Pentax with what I am learning. Pentax has a very small line up of products that are harder to find, less prestigious, and depending on who you talk to won't test as well. So, Pentax in some sense doesn't "reach as high". Yet, they survive. People who acquire Pentax products have to take extra effort to seek them out. They seek them out not for the brand name but for some special feature (name your favorite) that nobody else has. I am seeking them out because of the K-mount, picture quality (online reviews, picture samples, etc), and nostalgia. My impression of them was not as much a camera company but as an optics company and that is changing/expanding as I learn more about the K-30. They aren't number one or two but I think they know something that nobody else knows. I don't know what that is but I'll just keep telling myself that!

If Ricoh is serious about rebuilding Pentax then having a small focused product line could be good. It gives them room to take bets (like the K-01) and to refine and polish their existing products (like the K-5) while slowly entering new segments (like the K-30). They may not be the first to market like Nikon and Canon but they seem to do a good job when they get there. Apple wasn't the first with the music player devices but if you check their growth they did it right - more so than anyone.

When I posted my original question I kind of hoped that someone would say something like, "Yes, according to the numbers and the test data, Pentax lenses and the majority of 3rd party lenses aren't as great as something from other companies. However, they are building up to something greater than what the others have. It's their share to lose and Pentax's to gain." I just don't know what the path or plan forward is for Pentax.

-=- Boris
06-05-2013, 09:04 PM - 2 Likes   #25
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I would say that Canikon is like a modern plastic car from a big brand. You got all the bells and whistles, improves with the latest tech in most categories and got more models and extras to choose than money can buy. Just when you upgraded to a super AC there's a new model out there to upgrade to.
You work very well, does everything and the chicks dig you! Everybody knows you, they all know what you have to offer and they want you. Almost every movie star drives a version of you and they all praise you, rightfully so. You know how big and great you are and you brag, a lot.
The biggest problem is that your rivals won't shut up, nor do you. You fight day in and day out about who's the best version, but you know it's you. How can it not be, as you offer everything?

Pentax is like one those new versions of old Soviet cars that no regular people knows about. You have been around and once you were dominant. You were created from 67 soviet tanks and with the same kind of manufacturing ideology. You're built to last and once a person has felt your stainless body they can't stand a plastic panel anymore.
You have everything a normal person needs and a couple of really nice hidden features, but you don't brag. You may not have the 12 versions of HiFi players or leather seats to chose from, but you can find everything from rocket mounts to IR headlights on the market. Dumpster diving and flea markets feels like home to you.
When the others drives on the highway you go on the small roads on the countryside. You're odd, others may think you're quirky but the ones that you captured knows that you'll take them everywhere they want.
06-05-2013, 09:12 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
I would say that Canikon is like a modern plastic car from a big brand. You got all the bells and whistles, improves with the latest tech in most categories and got more models and extras to choose than money can buy. Just when you upgraded to a super AC there's a new model out there to upgrade to.
You work very well, does everything and the chicks dig you! Everybody knows you, they all know what you have to offer and they want you. Almost every movie star drives a version of you and they all praise you, rightfully so. You know how big and great you are and you brag, a lot.
The biggest problem is that your rivals won't shut up, nor do you. You fight day in and day out about who's the best version, but you know it's you. How can it not be, as you offer everything?

Pentax is like one those new versions of old Soviet cars that no regular people knows about. You have been around and once you were dominant. You were created from 67 soviet tanks and with the same kind of manufacturing ideology. You're built to last and once a person has felt your stainless body they can't stand a plastic panel anymore.
You have everything a normal person needs and a couple of really nice hidden features, but you don't brag. You may not have the 12 versions of HiFi players or leather seats to chose from, but you can find everything from rocket mounts to IR headlights on the market. Dumpster diving and flea markets feels like home to you.
When the others drives on the highway you go on the small roads on the countryside. You're odd, others may think you're quirky but the ones that you captured knows that you'll take them everywhere they want.
Wow, that is very poetic!

-=- Boris
06-05-2013, 09:17 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Wow, that is very poetic!

-=- Boris
It's a result of forum reading at 6am after a night of total insomnia after two days of catastrophic chaos. Who was it that said something like sorrow and suffering is an artists fuel?
I hope something good came out of it!
06-06-2013, 01:03 AM   #28
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Hi Boris.

What kind of pictures do you want to take with your new camera?

Sports, studio portraits, family and parties, hiking and trekking, travel and sightseeing, insects, wildlife,
abstract art, street, nighttime cityscapes, architecture, still life, exploding balloons?

You can always answer "all of the above" but that won't get you good advice. And besides, all camera systems
can do all kinds of photography with good results.

So what do you want your prospective camera system to do best? And don't worry, you'll still be able to do the
other genres.

Another thing to consider: If your dad has a stable of top class lenses already and he'll let you borrow things,
just get a camera to match his system. Unless you really hate that particular brand of camera for some reason,
like the focus or zoom ring direction, the auto iso implementation or whatever.

Regards,
--Anders.
06-06-2013, 09:16 AM   #29
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Honestly, I think the question is whether or not you are planning to go "high end." Are you planning to buy a 600mm f4 or 400mm f2.8 lens in the future? Is full frame in the short term future important?

When somebody is choosing a brand, it is important to know that you are buying into a system. The question isn't whether one brand has all the lenses that another brand has, it is important whether that brand has lenses that you will be interested in. If you want, say , a 17-50-ish f2.8 zoom a 55-300 zoom, a 50mm f1.8 prime, a 70mm prime and a wide angle prime, most brands will have that available.

I do think that Pentax has some special lenses. A lens like the 60-250mm f4, 50-135 f2.8, DA 15 f4 or DA 70mm f2.4 are tough to match in other systems, either because they aren't available, or because size-wise they are a lot bigger. That said, Nikon and Canon both have very nice line ups and I don't believe you suffer by going with them.

I do think that Pentax doesn't cripple their low end cameras as much as Nikon/Canon. The K30 feels like a better still photography tool than a camera like the D5200, with its 100 percent pentaprism, dual wheels, weather sealed body and in-body image stabilization.
06-06-2013, 10:28 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
there are no good lenses available for Pentax.
Some of the best lenses in the world are Pentax. There are no real dogs with the current lineup, many gems (all the Limiteds, all the * lenses) and plenty of older glass that still performs just as well as the day it was designed. Any older lens will still fit and work with a current Pentax camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
He also doesn't see any great lenses coming out for Pentax DSLR camera in the next five years
five years? Really? Five years ago, Pentax released the K10D camera (followed by K20D, K-7, K-5, K-5 II, plus other models on different market brackets). Five years is an eternity. sigma sold THREE versions of its popular 17-70 during the last five years. Anyone not working for Pentax but pretending to know which lenses will or will not be released is bluffing.

QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Canon has the most good lenses available and they are followed by Nikon.
That's rubbish, and doesn't mean anything. Define "good". Sharp? With great colours? Compact? Fast to autofocus? Weatherproof? With a nice zoom range? A fast aperture? Beautiful contrast?

There are good and less good lenses in any lineup.

QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
I think deep down he wants to hold Pentax up on a pedestal but, being the data driven man that he is, can't find the data to so.
Has he been taking any pictures lately or is he just measurebating? There are already several websites testing lenses backward and forward, with more means than anyone trying to emulate them in their basement.

I would reason the same way if someone told me Nikon (or anyone) had no good glass. In short, evidence suggests otherwise. Maybe ask your father to visit the Pentax Photo Gallery website and explain how these pictures can be produced without any good lenses.

Or better yet, figure out the kind of photography you want to make, then get a good camera and lens (or lenses) and start taking pictures instead of worrying over ill-advised opinions.
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