Focal length vs Mpx: K-5IIs + DA21 or K-3 + DA15 and crop?

carrrlangas · 12-19-2013, 08:23 PM

I just bought a DA15 while looking for the DA21 because a good opportunity showed up. I am also upgrading my K-5 to a K-5IIs (arround U$700).
Now, while still looking for a DA21 (arround U$400) it ocurred to me that combining the cost of body+DA21 I could buy a K-3 (U$1100 at amazon) and use it with the DA15 I already got. I´d still get arround 16Mpx after cropping the DA15, 24Mpx image to match the DA21 field of view. Only loss I can think of is the size/weight advantage of the DA21. Same thing with K-5IIs vs K-3.

What do you think?

Last edited by carrrlangas; 12-19-2013 at 08:57 PM.

waterfall · 12-19-2013, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by carrrlangas

I just bought a DA15 while looking for the DA21 because a good opportunity showed up. I am also upgrading my K-5 to a K-5IIs (arround U$700).
Now, while still looking for a DA21 (arround U$400) it ocurred to me that combining the cost of body+DA21 I could buy a K-3 (U$1100 at amazon) and use it with the DA15 I already got. I´d still get arround 16Mpx after crop. Only loss I can think of is the size/weight advantage of the DA21. Same thing with K-5IIs vs K-3.

What do you think?

I have the 15 Ltd and the 35 Ltd. Both lens are compact and light. I understand that the 21 Ltd is between my 15 and 35 in size and weight. If true, the weight difference would be like the difference between a bunch of six grapes and a bunch of eight grapes. You will find the sharpness of the 15 Ltd amazing. Perhaps the 21 will become the girl in the subway window seen from the station--lovely but now gone from memory.

The 15 Ltd haunts my mind with what it can do.

Bonobo · 12-19-2013, 09:16 PM

i'm having trouble thinking of a situation where a you would need a 21 but couldn't make it work with the 15. or where you would so desperately need that 6mm of focal length that you'd crop and reduce image size instead of just zooming with your feet to the desired composition and keeping the full quality img from a k-3.

so i guess make mine a vote for the k-3 +15mm ( this is coming from a 21mm owner).

**mattt** · 12-19-2013, 09:31 PM

I like the 21 for shooting indoors. 15 has much more wide angle distortion so if you intend to crop to emulate 21mm, you must be careful of your PoV or you'll have bulging bits and pieces all over.

Heie · 12-20-2013, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by waterfall

Perhaps the 21 will become the girl in the subway window seen from the station--lovely but now gone from memory.

Outstanding metaphor. I will file that one away for future use.

-Heie

Snydly · 12-20-2013, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by Heie

Outstanding metaphor. I will file that one away for future use.

-Heie

Dang it. I was gonna claim that one second hand. You Army guys are always up too early. You're slow compared to the Air Force guys, but you always get there early.

Bill

Heie · 12-20-2013, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by Snydly

Dang it. I was gonna claim that one second hand. You Army guys are always up too early. You're slow compared to the Air Force guys, but you always get there early.

Bill

Being 6 hours ahead of you in Germany also gives a considerable edge

But yes, the Army seems to prefer the latter of the two: "Work smarter, not harder."

-Heie

Snydly · 12-20-2013, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Heie

Being 6 hours ahead of you in Germany also gives a considerable edge

But yes, the Army seems to prefer the latter of the two: "Work smarter, not harder."

-Heie

I had a temp stay at Fort Rucker BOQ. I was awakened every morning at 5:00am by the resident soldiers workout. I know they knew where the Air Force guys were. We worked hard in the Air Force too, just not that early...

Bill

Heie · 12-20-2013, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Snydly

I was awakened every morning at 5:00am

Never been to Rucker myself, but I'm sure they ran by just to be pricks

But at least it's not like the local nationals here. Everytime I speak with the locals that live just outside the base, they all (laughingly) curse the Americans for 'that damn loudspeaker every morning at 0630!" Because the base is right in town, everyone hears Reveille

-Heie

carrrlangas · 12-20-2013, 10:56 AM

Thanks for the advice everybody. It seems that the consensus is to stick to the DA15 regardless of getting the K-3 or K.5IIs. Thing is I am a sucker for small lenses (system actually) if I hadn´t got so used to the layout (and top LCD) of the K-5 series I´d happily use a K-r or K-x for when light gear is priority one. Also, the DA40XS, F28 and DA70 kind of spoiled me for small sharp lenses. I am travelling to New York for the holidays so I think I must take advantage of the country with the best prices on Pentax gear (regardless of MAP or whatever but that´s another topic).
From your advice, I realize perhaps I should go for the DA35 Ltd instead of the 21 (would even be useful for my artwork photograhpy) but 35/2.8 is not an atractive FL/max aperture combination to me. Maybe I´ll regret it later next year...

About 15 vs 21: The best comparison between the 15 vs 21 field of view and application I can think of is when I used my A24 and F28 on film. I remember I enjoyed taking portraits with the 28 but never managed to do the same with the 24, very difficult to get a flattering perspective for the subject while keeping the walls from falling

For crhistmas and New Year´s eve I plan to mount the 15mm, prefocus at 2m, @f/4 which should give me a DoF of about 7 meters, from 1,2m to 8m. How cool is that!? If instead I prefocus at 3m, @f/4 I´ll get focus from 1,5m to 44m.. and hiperfocal distance when prefocusing at 4m, down from 1,8m... I must memorize this numbers and make visible marks on the barrel for 2, 3 and 4 meters

The 21mm works similarly, but add 2 meters to all the prefocusing and minimum focus distances...

EDIT: I remembered about these portraits taken with the F28 on HP5 Plus 400 ISO pushed 2 stops (sorry for the crappy scans!)

stevebrot · 12-20-2013, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Bonobo

i'm having trouble thinking of a situation where a you would need a 21 but couldn't make it work with the 15. or where you would so desperately need that 6mm of focal length that you'd crop and reduce image size instead of just zooming with your feet to the desired composition and keeping the full quality img from a k-3.

so i guess make mine a vote for the k-3 +15mm ( this is coming from a 21mm owner).

There is a huge difference between 21mm and 15mm in terms of FOV. As a result, moving closer to the subject (zooming with your feet) may not be an option for many subjects. There is also the fact that perspective is determined by the lens position relative to the subject and as such, zooming with one's feet is never fully equivalent to actually using the longer focal length. Cropping, on the other hand, always retains the desired perspective, though with some loss of quality.

Steve

(...big fan of primes, but truth is truth and zooming with one's feet is not quite there...)

starbase218 · 12-20-2013, 03:37 PM

Personally, I wouldn't want to have to use the 15mm when I want 21mm. Just a convenience thing, really.

Kozlok · 12-20-2013, 08:31 PM

You already have the 16-50, which can really serve as your 21. Sounds like you want the K-3, so go that way. You will get the 21 next year.

carrrlangas · 12-21-2013, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Kozlok

You already have the 16-50, which can really serve as your 21. Sounds like you want the K-3, so go that way. You will get the 21 next year.

True, but due to size and weight I only use the 16-50 in studio or when in bad terrain and/or weather conditions. Else I prefer the primes! The K-3 will be cheaper next year, the DA21 probably not.

Bagga_Txips · 12-22-2013, 02:00 PM

Get the 21, it's a lovely lens in so many ways, and using stitching you can get a 15ish look very easily. You can benefit from end of line savings on an smc version of the 21, and the k3 will be 300 dollars cheaper next Christmas. And the firmware will be more refined.

In my opinion, k5 to k5iis is an unnecessary upgrade, the only reason to buy the iis is to possess both.

12-19-2013, 08:23 PM	#1
carrrlangas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Joensuu (Finland) Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,761	Focal length vs Mpx: K-5IIs + DA21 or K-3 + DA15 and crop? I just bought a DA15 while looking for the DA21 because a good opportunity showed up. I am also upgrading my K-5 to a K-5IIs (arround U$700). Now, while still looking for a DA21 (arround U$400) it ocurred to me that combining the cost of body+DA21 I could buy a K-3 (U$1100 at amazon) and use it with the DA15 I already got. I´d still get arround 16Mpx after cropping the DA15, 24Mpx image to match the DA21 field of view. Only loss I can think of is the size/weight advantage of the DA21. Same thing with K-5IIs vs K-3. What do you think? Last edited by carrrlangas; 12-19-2013 at 08:57 PM.

12-20-2013, 10:56 AM	#10
carrrlangas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Joensuu (Finland) Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,761 Original Poster	Thanks for the advice everybody. It seems that the consensus is to stick to the DA15 regardless of getting the K-3 or K.5IIs. Thing is I am a sucker for small lenses (system actually) if I hadn´t got so used to the layout (and top LCD) of the K-5 series I´d happily use a K-r or K-x for when light gear is priority one. Also, the DA40XS, F28 and DA70 kind of spoiled me for small sharp lenses. I am travelling to New York for the holidays so I think I must take advantage of the country with the best prices on Pentax gear (regardless of MAP or whatever but that´s another topic). From your advice, I realize perhaps I should go for the DA35 Ltd instead of the 21 (would even be useful for my artwork photograhpy) but 35/2.8 is not an atractive FL/max aperture combination to me. Maybe I´ll regret it later next year... About 15 vs 21: The best comparison between the 15 vs 21 field of view and application I can think of is when I used my A24 and F28 on film. I remember I enjoyed taking portraits with the 28 but never managed to do the same with the 24, very difficult to get a flattering perspective for the subject while keeping the walls from falling For crhistmas and New Year´s eve I plan to mount the 15mm, prefocus at 2m, @f/4 which should give me a DoF of about 7 meters, from 1,2m to 8m. How cool is that!? If instead I prefocus at 3m, @f/4 I´ll get focus from 1,5m to 44m.. and hiperfocal distance when prefocusing at 4m, down from 1,8m... I must memorize this numbers and make visible marks on the barrel for 2, 3 and 4 meters The 21mm works similarly, but add 2 meters to all the prefocusing and minimum focus distances... EDIT: I remembered about these portraits taken with the F28 on HP5 Plus 400 ISO pushed 2 stops (sorry for the crappy scans!) Attached Images Last edited by carrrlangas; 12-20-2013 at 11:07 AM. Reason: grrrrammar

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12-19-2013, 08:53 PM	#2
waterfall Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Northern Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,812	Originally posted by carrrlangas I just bought a DA15 while looking for the DA21 because a good opportunity showed up. I am also upgrading my K-5 to a K-5IIs (arround U$700). Now, while still looking for a DA21 (arround U$400) it ocurred to me that combining the cost of body+DA21 I could buy a K-3 (U$1100 at amazon) and use it with the DA15 I already got. I´d still get arround 16Mpx after crop. Only loss I can think of is the size/weight advantage of the DA21. Same thing with K-5IIs vs K-3. What do you think? I have the 15 Ltd and the 35 Ltd. Both lens are compact and light. I understand that the 21 Ltd is between my 15 and 35 in size and weight. If true, the weight difference would be like the difference between a bunch of six grapes and a bunch of eight grapes. You will find the sharpness of the 15 Ltd amazing. Perhaps the 21 will become the girl in the subway window seen from the station--lovely but now gone from memory. The 15 Ltd haunts my mind with what it can do.

12-19-2013, 09:16 PM	#3
Bonobo Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Miami Posts: 226	i'm having trouble thinking of a situation where a you would need a 21 but couldn't make it work with the 15. or where you would so desperately need that 6mm of focal length that you'd crop and reduce image size instead of just zooming with your feet to the desired composition and keeping the full quality img from a k-3. so i guess make mine a vote for the k-3 +15mm ( this is coming from a 21mm owner).

12-19-2013, 09:31 PM	#4
mattt Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,907	I like the 21 for shooting indoors. 15 has much more wide angle distortion so if you intend to crop to emulate 21mm, you must be careful of your PoV or you'll have bulging bits and pieces all over.

12-20-2013, 02:32 AM	#5
Heie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 968	Originally posted by waterfall Perhaps the 21 will become the girl in the subway window seen from the station--lovely but now gone from memory. Outstanding metaphor. I will file that one away for future use. -Heie

12-20-2013, 06:23 AM	#6
Snydly Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Florida Photos: Albums Posts: 242	Originally posted by Heie Outstanding metaphor. I will file that one away for future use. -Heie Dang it. I was gonna claim that one second hand. You Army guys are always up too early. You're slow compared to the Air Force guys, but you always get there early. Bill

12-20-2013, 06:33 AM	#7
Heie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 968	Originally posted by Snydly Dang it. I was gonna claim that one second hand. You Army guys are always up too early. You're slow compared to the Air Force guys, but you always get there early. Bill Being 6 hours ahead of you in Germany also gives a considerable edge But yes, the Army seems to prefer the latter of the two: "Work smarter, not harder." -Heie

12-20-2013, 07:34 AM	#8
Snydly Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Florida Photos: Albums Posts: 242	Originally posted by Heie Being 6 hours ahead of you in Germany also gives a considerable edge But yes, the Army seems to prefer the latter of the two: "Work smarter, not harder." -Heie I had a temp stay at Fort Rucker BOQ. I was awakened every morning at 5:00am by the resident soldiers workout. I know they knew where the Air Force guys were. We worked hard in the Air Force too, just not that early... Bill

12-20-2013, 07:45 AM	#9
Heie Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 968	Originally posted by Snydly I was awakened every morning at 5:00am Never been to Rucker myself, but I'm sure they ran by just to be pricks But at least it's not like the local nationals here. Everytime I speak with the locals that live just outside the base, they all (laughingly) curse the Americans for 'that damn loudspeaker every morning at 0630!" Because the base is right in town, *everyone* hears Reveille -Heie

12-20-2013, 11:37 AM	#11
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Bonobo i'm having trouble thinking of a situation where a you would need a 21 but couldn't make it work with the 15. or where you would so desperately need that 6mm of focal length that you'd crop and reduce image size instead of just zooming with your feet to the desired composition and keeping the full quality img from a k-3. so i guess make mine a vote for the k-3 +15mm ( this is coming from a 21mm owner). There is a huge difference between 21mm and 15mm in terms of FOV. As a result, moving closer to the subject (zooming with your feet) may not be an option for many subjects. There is also the fact that perspective is determined by the lens position relative to the subject and as such, zooming with one's feet is never fully equivalent to actually using the longer focal length. Cropping, on the other hand, always retains the desired perspective, though with some loss of quality. Steve (...big fan of primes, but truth is truth and zooming with one's feet is not quite there...)

12-20-2013, 03:37 PM	#12
starbase218 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy, Universe Posts: 1,119	Personally, I wouldn't want to have to use the 15mm when I want 21mm. Just a convenience thing, really.

12-20-2013, 08:31 PM	#13
Kozlok Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albuquerque Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,148	You already have the 16-50, which can really serve as your 21. Sounds like you want the K-3, so go that way. You will get the 21 next year.

12-21-2013, 04:46 AM	#14
carrrlangas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Joensuu (Finland) Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,761 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kozlok You already have the 16-50, which can really serve as your 21. Sounds like you want the K-3, so go that way. You will get the 21 next year. True, but due to size and weight I only use the 16-50 in studio or when in bad terrain and/or weather conditions. Else I prefer the primes! The K-3 will be cheaper next year, the DA21 probably not.

12-22-2013, 02:00 PM	#15
Bagga_Txips Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Waterford Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 454	Get the 21, it's a lovely lens in so many ways, and using stitching you can get a 15ish look very easily. You can benefit from end of line savings on an smc version of the 21, and the k3 will be 300 dollars cheaper next Christmas. And the firmware will be more refined. In my opinion, k5 to k5iis is an unnecessary upgrade, the only reason to buy the iis is to possess both.