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01-30-2014, 11:58 AM - 1 Like   #1
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DxO are frauds.

QuoteQuote:
DxOMark Score
DxOMark Score corresponds to an optimal focal length/aperture combination. The score corresponds to the quantity of information that can be captured by the camera. Each focal length/aperture combination provides a numerical value. The highest value is the DxOMark Score.


DxOMark Score is measured for low-light conditions: 150 lux and 1/60s exposure time. Such conditions correspond to a correctly-lit living room (with no daylight): it is a difficult but rather typical photographic use case.
Those scores everyone loves to quote from DxO do not represent lens performance in a range of shooting conditions, in fact they represent shooting with a lens with no daylight.

And on their website if you read the page on their scores... it makes reference to this.

Their headlines and claims as in claiming to represent the "Best K-3 lenses" etc, are based on this absolutely unrepresentative value. I have not taken one landscape, wildlife or bird image, in a normally lit living room. Not only that, smaller pixel sensors are severely punished buy the lower wavelengths of light, and perform poorer in low light situations. So DxO is deliberately showing what cameras and lenses perform against each other in the worst condition, rather than showing how they perform against each other in the best conditions. Difraction limits set in much lower in the red spectrum than the blue spectrum.

DxO should own up and put in large letters before every lens test they publish, "
QuoteQuote:
These tests are relevant only if you always shoot in your living room with no daylight.
" Without that disclaimer, it would appear that they are deliberately trying to mislead the public into thinking their tests mean something they don't.

Their headlines are misleading, incomplete, and false in terms of their relevance to the average camera user.

They are perpetrating a huge fraud the purpose of which I can only speculate.

And I'd love for them to come on here and debate the point. But I won't be holding my breath.

01-30-2014, 12:29 PM - 2 Likes   #2
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I have seen endless, endless, endless, ratings from this or that sensor, this or that lens. I have seen endless, endless, endless test photos of charts and pixel peepings.

But I just want to see good photos.
01-30-2014, 12:47 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr Orloff Quote
I have seen endless, endless, endless, ratings from this or that sensor, this or that lens. I have seen endless, endless, endless test photos of charts and pixel peepings.

But I just want to see good photos.
I just never want to see anyone holding up these fools as some kind of meaningful comparison of camera equipment. It looks like they started testing in their living room, because it was cheap and easily replicable, and then continued the practice despite the obviously shortcomings of their testing protocol. Testing an un-repsentative protocol is one thing, continuing the fraud when anyone with the slightest technical background would immediately see the flaws in it, is next to criminal.I wonder if telling people with 1.4 lenses and FF cameras how good their equipment is compared to everyone else's increases their sales to a target market that might have the money and inclination to buy their product, but not the smarts to realize they're being had.

That being said, one shouldn't hold that against them if deciding to buy their product, which apparently is quite good, despite their ridiculous rating system.
01-30-2014, 12:58 PM - 1 Like   #4
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There are situations where the numbers, etc, are meaningful. But fringe situations, specialist situations. For the 99% of everything else it is about understanding and best utilising what you've got. I've seen way better shots from a mobile phone than from medium format. It's easy to lose sight of what is important. We are lucky now, we are in the 'good enough' era of digital photography.

Looks like we might actually agree on something Norm. How 'bout that.

01-30-2014, 01:21 PM   #5
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norm and orloff agreeing?

pentax is doomed!
01-30-2014, 01:24 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
norm and orloff agreeing?

pentax is doomed!
Pfffft... it's happened before..
01-30-2014, 01:39 PM   #7
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There's a reason the tests include information on how they're exercised. If you'd like a daylight tested camera, do the tests yourself, or request they offer two testing sequences?
01-30-2014, 01:42 PM - 1 Like   #8
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Good, bad, or indifferent.... DxO offers something that is somewhat consistent, or so you would hope. Same test setup, same procedure, different camera/lenses. Is it perfect? No. Is it a lone data point for your greater evaluation? Yeah, probably.

01-30-2014, 01:53 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eulogy Quote
There's a reason the tests include information on how they're exercised. If you'd like a daylight tested camera, do the tests yourself, or request they offer two testing sequences?
And what would be wrong with suggesting they state right up front that they only test in the conditions of a darkly lit icing room, that's where the fraud occurs.

QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Good, bad, or indifferent.... DxO offers something that is somewhat consistent, or so you would hope. Same test setup, same procedure, different camera/lenses. Is it perfect? No. Is it a lone data point for your greater evaluation? Yeah, probably.
What's consistent in low light in a living room does not constantly reflect what happens in low light on a cloudy day out doors, where the light is predominantly blue, in day light or any light that is full spectrum. And, they know this... yet they publish lists of the "best lens for a K-3" where low and behold an ƒ1.4 lens wins. Like what a surprise. Do they really think we needed them to tell us that?

"If the title was best lens to take a low light image in your living room for your K-3." That might be somewhat informative.Irrelevant to many of us, but informative.
To say "best lenses for your K-3" is absolutely fraudulent. They misrepresent the truth.
Not only do they feign relevance to all photographers, they make you read through a pile of crap on other pages, to understand what a load of crock they've published and they know most people won't read that stuff. Of course they'll then fall back on... "well you should have read the fine print." As if that in some way exonerates them from adopting a format that obscures the truth.

They claim that shooting picture in your living room is a typical use. You need only look through the pictures on this site and see how many of them were taken in people's living rooms to realize what a distortion this whole concept is. It was false at conception, living room low light images are rare, not typical, yet they offer no other justification for this bizarre choice of lighting source. Everything they do in their ratings is influenced by this one false premise. You can't tell me they don't know this.

I've sold 10 Mp point and shoot images that by their rating couldn't have been more than 6 mp, printed at 20x30, yet they say I shouldn't have even been able to print an acceptable 8x12. These people are so ignorant they are dangerous.

This whole site is on the level of a hoax. They should just sell their software.

Last edited by normhead; 01-30-2014 at 02:07 PM.
01-30-2014, 03:28 PM   #10
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DXO Mark is quite useful from a sensor standpoint. Although I will admit that there is way too much focus on small differences in sensor performance. The D7000 and K5 had the same sensor by all accounts, but the K5 tested a little higher in dynamic range and the D7000 had a slightly higher sports iso score. Not a real difference in real world shooting.

On the other hand, lens scores are all but worthless, unless DXO Mark could figure out how to mount all lenses on the same camera. Scores just don't mean anything otherwise. Putting numbers on these lenses may make some people feel good about their gear, but they don't mean anything.
01-30-2014, 03:42 PM   #11
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If they don't stop testing in dimly lit living room conditions, none of their tests mean anything unless you are shooting in a darkly lit living room. It should not come as a shock that a 1.4 lens will shoot better in low light. That says nothing about if you are shooting at 5.6 in broad daylight... and to imply that it does is a ...well, I've said it enough already.
01-30-2014, 04:17 PM   #12
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Help me out. If I do a 25 second shot at night you are saying my lens will not be as good as if I shot it at 1/500 in the daytime?
01-30-2014, 04:37 PM   #13
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If they disclose their methodology on their website, how is it fraud?
01-30-2014, 07:17 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Help me out. If I do a 25 second shot at night you are saying my lens will not be as good as if I shot it at 1/500 in the daytime?
I don't know have you done it? Are they the same? You seem to be implying that they would be. I've never taken a night shot that in anyway resembles a daylight shot in terms of sharpness or detail, unless it was a star shot, where the stars are themselves light sources.

Help me out, if you shoot in low light with a camera that is good in low light, and one that is not as good in low light, but is equal to it in bright light, how is that relevant to two images shot by the same two cameras in good light?

QuoteQuote:
If they disclose their methodology on their website, how is it fraud?
Because they make claims on other pages without direct reference to those pages.

Their page titled "The best lenses for the K-3" in which they proclaim the Sigma 1.4 to best the lens for a K-3 makes no mention of the fact that the testing is done in low light. Only a reference to another page with the description of their testing philosophy. An honest company would have done testing in all kinds of light and done some kind of a blend, and would be able to tell you which lens is better at ƒ5.6 in daylight. Or they would title the thread, "the best K-3 lenses for shooting in your mom's basement." Their expectation that a living room will have no daylight, is really only relevant to a window less basement.
01-30-2014, 08:16 PM - 1 Like   #15
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I have some resolution test target shots that I made with flash, and some with compact FL ambient light in the living/dining room, both mounted on a hefty tripod. They show the same effect - the same corners are sharp; the same corners are blurry. I admit I definitely don't understand the exact implications of different light wavelengths etc., but it seems like it's possible to draw similar conclusions with totally different light sources. On the other hand, if the point was focusing distances, then yes, the living room is a little confining, and to test thoroughly you'd want to test at a variety of subject distances.
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