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08-10-2014, 03:17 AM   #46
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I don't believe DXO Mark is biased. They set up a test, give you what they are testing and then generate a set of numbers for lens-camera body combinations. That's all.

Certainly those numbers are really prone to being misunderstood. They also don't give you the whole picture and I wouldn't buy a lens based on them, but I don't see an ulterior motive here at all. Rather than having a single score, I much prefer the photozone style of measuring individual parameters and then leaving it to the reader to sort out what is important to them.

With DXO Mark's sensor scores, it is easier to break out the individual components of the score (dynamic range, noise, resolution) than with the lens scores.

08-10-2014, 04:40 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by hjoseph7 Quote
Is DXO biased ?
QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
Nothing is ever unbiased
Then it follows that any suspicion of DXO bias is, in the first place, also influenced by bias - infinite regress.

Last edited by wildman; 08-10-2014 at 04:57 AM.
08-10-2014, 07:01 AM   #48
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We are always foolish to follow the recommendations of experts or testers without taking into account the actual data they present and the use we want to make of it. As Norm has pointed out DxO is upfront about their test methods. It is up to us to look at the tests, note how they were conducted and then include the results as one of the factors we think about in evaluating a lens (or anything else).
08-10-2014, 07:41 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
We are always foolish to follow the recommendations of experts or testers without taking into account the actual data they present and the use we want to make of it. As Norm has pointed out DxO is upfront about their test methods. It is up to us to look at the tests, note how they were conducted and then include the results as one of the factors we think about in evaluating a lens (or anything else).
Exactly, when I first found out what DxO does it was upsetting to say the least. But, that page was always there to read. They describe their test methods. When I think of DxO now, I think wedding photographers, or people who shoot in doors a lot. If you shoot in those kinds of conditions, then their tests are relevant to you.

I shoot 90% outdoors, at 100 ISO, and most of their conclusions are completely irrelevant to me. I don't care what the best you can do in the worst conditions is. I care what the best you can do in the best conditions is. And DxO doesn't address that.

I completely disagree with lens correction. Our eye sees with a curved field of view, a lens should have it. Heavily corrected images look artificial to me. They look like cartoons. SO I see DxO and a number of people who love them as pushing a false agenda. Sure DxO can do it. They just have never proven it's beneficial thing to do. And despite what folks might tell you, software doesn't make up for not having a tilt shift, unless you actually don't have a tilt shift. For those who don't have and haven't seen one used by a pro, the emulation will seem like it's what you want. It's amazing though how many people say it's the same thing, who haven't actually seen the real thing. Or to put it more bluntly, if you haven't stood behind the 8x10 frosted glass and worked the controls, you don't even know what the possibilities of tilt shift are. When one of those guys tells me, "I can do the same thing with software." I might believe them. Strangely however, from my observation, not one contributor who has actually used a tilt shift camera has said the software is just as good. Lots of people who haven't have though. Who you going to trust?

Engineers gone mad I tell you.

08-10-2014, 07:46 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Certainly those numbers are really prone to being misunderstood. They also don't give you the whole picture and I wouldn't buy a lens based on them, but I don't see an ulterior motive here at all. Rather than having a single score, I much prefer the photozone style of measuring individual parameters and then leaving it to the reader to sort out what is important to them.
I prefer photozone's style, too, but at the end of the test, they still have a single 'optical score'!

The difference is it's a subjective number more than objective. The Q can still have a 5-star rating even though it'll never approach the resolution of a larger format; and the reader is allowed (or required, depending on your point of view) to make their own conclusions from the text of the article/knowledge of external parameters, etc.
08-10-2014, 10:35 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
Then it follows that any suspicion of DXO bias is, in the first place, also influenced by bias - infinite regress.
'Infinite regress' in scholastic philosophy means the the indefinite extension of the chain of causes. According to Schopenhauer, there is nothing wrong in positing infinite regress; as a matter of fact, Schopenhauer is an advocate of infinite regress.

Infinite regress does not follow from the two quotes that you have selected at random:

(x) Is A B? (particular)
(y) No A is ever not-B. (universal)

If you are gonna play philosophical mind games, then do it the right way, or don't do it at all.

People come here with honest questions, and they are met by smug and not-so-clever dialecticians.

I feel like I'm on a DPreview forum. I would have thought that the Pentaxians were better than that.

Last edited by Unregistered User; 08-10-2014 at 10:44 AM.
08-10-2014, 02:57 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by DominicVII Quote
'Infinite regress' in scholastic philosophy means the the indefinite extension of the chain of causes. According to Schopenhauer, there is nothing wrong in positing infinite regress; as a matter of fact, Schopenhauer is an advocate of infinite regress.

Infinite regress does not follow from the two quotes that you have selected at random:

(x) Is A B? (particular)
(y) No A is ever not-B. (universal)

If you are gonna play philosophical mind games, then do it the right way, or don't do it at all.

People come here with honest questions, and they are met by smug and not-so-clever dialecticians.

I feel like I'm on a DPreview forum. I would have thought that the Pentaxians were better than that.
Wow! Schopenhauer and all - I must slink off into some obscure corner of the forum and lick my intellectual wounds such as they are.

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