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05-27-2008, 10:32 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I'm not sure I buy this. I haven't seen the progression of technology ever leading to things getting bigger.
so are we going to start looking for a 1/2MP camera now?

I agree, smaller form factors, smaller transistors, smaller pixel sites, but larger sensors. It has more to do with the cost of manufacturing then anything else

Again, I think pentax/samsung will release a full frame camera in the next 3-5 years, but I think it will be another 10-15 years after the initial release before the aps senors will go away in the consumer dslr and prosumer dslr. Remember, Pentax already had a working (kind of) concept of a full frame sensor. Nikon themselves actually released a full frame camera back earlier this decade.

Back to the original discussion though, if the 70mm is what your wanting, go for it. It seems to have the added benefit of working on a full frame as well.

05-27-2008, 10:33 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I'm not sure I buy this. I haven't seen the progression of technology ever leading to things getting bigger.
Ohh... I can come up with a few matt

LCD TV's, cars, aircrafts... and the list goes on

Sorry, just could not resist
05-27-2008, 10:37 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by chadvw Quote
so are we going to start looking for a 1/2MP camera now?

I agree, smaller form factors, smaller transistors, smaller pixel sites, but larger sensors. It has more to do with the cost of manufacturing then anything else

Again, I think pentax/samsung will release a full frame camera in the next 3-5 years, but I think it will be another 10-15 years after the initial release before the aps senors will go away in the consumer dslr and prosumer dslr. Remember, Pentax already had a working (kind of) concept of a full frame sensor. Nikon themselves actually released a full frame camera back earlier this decade.

Back to the original discussion though, if the 70mm is what your wanting, go for it. It seems to have the added benefit of working on a full frame as well.
what is FULL FRAME??!!?!!?

you guys are mind boggling

everyone is hell bent on adhering to an arbitrary standard set decades ago

for what?

what?

a few inches of added depth of field on your ancient 50 f1.2 and the overpriced 85 f1.4???

seriously people!
05-27-2008, 10:51 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
...a few inches of added depth...
According to all the email in my spam folder, it's what everybody needs...

(Sorry, couldn't resist... )

05-27-2008, 11:08 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
what is FULL FRAME??!!?!!?

you guys are mind boggling

everyone is hell bent on adhering to an arbitrary standard set decades ago

for what?

what?

a few inches of added depth of field on your ancient 50 f1.2 and the overpriced 85 f1.4???

seriously people!
What is full frame?
QuoteQuote:
A full-frame digital SLR is a digital single-lens reflex camera fitted with an image sensor that is the same size as a 35 mm negative.[1][2] This is in contrast to cameras with smaller sensors, typically of a size equivalent to APS-C-size film, much smaller than a full 35 mm frame. As of 2007 the majority of digital cameras, both compact and SLR models, use a smaller-than-35 mm frame, as it is easier and cheaper to manufacture imaging sensors at a smaller size. Historically, the earliest digital SLR models, such as the Kodak DCS-100, also used a smaller sensor.
In a way your right. who cares? Some do. Just the same way some people perfer medium format over 35mm.

To me its many things.
The viewfinder is simply amazing on even the crappiest 35mm camera compaired to the dslr.
Being able to go back to 85mm for portraits rather then debating on using a 50mm with a focal effect of 75mm or an 85mm with the focal effect of 130mm
Its getting those few inches of added dof on a 50mm f/1.2
Its getting that other half of the image that's not there anymore
its getting that detail that you don't get with cropped sensors
Its getting that better low light performance

I know that there are a lot of people out there that love the smaller size. they look at it as a bonus that their lens just went from a 100-300 to a 150-450 lens without loosing any light. For them APS is great, its amazing, its......just a quick cropping job.
05-27-2008, 11:20 AM   #21
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To me its many things.


The viewfinder is simply amazing on even the crappiest 35mm camera compaired to the dslr.

hyperbole, while a typical 35mm's SLR viewfinder is impressive, a Pentaprism is not garbage,

the only downside is why none of the DSLR manufacturers make split prisims... anyway


Being able to go back to 85mm for portraits rather then debating on using a 50mm with a focal effect of 75mm or an 85mm with the focal effect of 130mm

ohh boo ****ing hoo, as if anyone viewing the final products is going to see a difference. If you honestly think that focal length will make or break your photoshoot, you should consider your talent at a photographer.

(you can also slap on the 50-135 and go nuts picking whatever focal length you want)


Its getting those few inches of added dof on a 50mm f/1.2

right, because everyone and their grandma shoots razor thin photographs day and night.

shallow DOF is a niche art


Its getting that other half of the image that's not there anymore

you're not losing half of the image, esp not at the higher focal lengths, stop exaggerating


its getting that detail that you don't get with cropped sensors

what detail? are you comparing FILM to an ever evolving digital sensor?

seriously?



Its getting that better low light performance

low light performance is a factor of many things, while as a general rule smaller pixels are worse at it, the current development in sensor technology will soon prove it otherwise.

have you bothered to look at the technical specs of the new pentax sensor?


I know that there are a lot of people out there that love the smaller size. they look at it as a bonus that their lens just went from a 100-300 to a 150-450 lens without loosing any light. For them APS is great, its amazing, its......just a quick cropping job.


i hope you realize that we are only dealing with field of view, you do NOT get higher magnification, so its not really a bonus....

are you sure you understand how cropped sensors work?

cuz i dont think you do.
05-27-2008, 11:41 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote

I know that there are a lot of people out there that love the smaller size. they look at it as a bonus that their lens just went from a 100-300 to a 150-450 lens without loosing any light. For them APS is great, its amazing, its......just a quick cropping job.


i hope you realize that we are only dealing with field of view, you do NOT get higher magnification, so its not really a bonus....

are you sure you understand how cropped sensors work?

cuz i dont think you do.
Hmm that's what he is saying.. he is saying it is not getting highter magnification... he is saying some people think it is a bonus...
05-27-2008, 11:50 AM   #23
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Is it really that much more expensive to manufacture a FF sensor? And what if a company decided to throw down the gauntlet and make a FF consumer camera. While that is unlikely it isn't impossible. What I dont understand is what people's obsession over people who want a FF camera? Is it so bad?

And for lenses It's not like we are telling Pentax you must make all your lenses full frame so I can future proof it!! There are already choices that can support it so why not?

Btw when Pentax does release a FF camera i'm sure the only benefit of having it is not going to be just the fact it can shoot FF. If people have their reasons for wanting it let them be. I personally don't know all the facts behind it but I know if it's in my price range in the future I would like to get a FF camera.

If you had a FF 14mp sensor and a cropped 14mp sensor wouldn't it be very likely that the FF one would be better?

05-27-2008, 11:52 AM   #24
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To directly quote the line: "they look at it as a bonus that their lens just went from a 100-300 to a 150-450 lens" I agree with Gooshin's points above and in this case he's also right. The crop is only that, a crop. It changes the FOV of the lens but the magnification remains the same no matter what body the lens is on.

As for this recycled Full Frame debate (as well as many similar threads). What's up with all this wishing for all these features that 90% of us won't buy or pay for? A full frame $3000-5000 body is for the rare few and myself included, don't have the skills to use the K10/20D to it's max capability yet. Learn the gear you have and stop thinking/wishing/dreaming that a full frame or whatever will make you a better photographer.
05-27-2008, 11:56 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by chadvw Quote


In a way your right. who cares? Some do. Just the same way some people perfer medium format over 35mm.
Exactly. And yet, even with all of the benefits that medium format had over 35mm (in the film days), 35mm film outnumbered MF by a ratio of about 100 to 1. Why? Price and size and convenience.

The same thing will happen with APS-C versus 24x36mm sensors. Which is why APS-C is not going anywhere. All of your reasons for wanting the bigger sensor, while for the most part valid, are just not compelling enough for most users, especially at the price differentials that will always exist.

I have no problem with people wanting to buy a FF camera. I do have a problem, however, when these people try to convince other people that they shouldn't buy DA lenses because they might not work ten years down the road, especially by convincing them to wait for a product that a) doesn't exist; and b) they probably don't need or wouldn't want to buy anyway. If DA lenses won't work in ten years, then neither will any of the legacy lenses. And if nobody buys any DA lenses that are available now because they're afraid they might not be future compatible, then, it is possible that Pentax will go out of business, in which case nobody wins (except Canon and Nikon).

That said, I think we can both agree that the original poster should not have been bummed out by buying the 70mm, at least. It's a great lens.
05-27-2008, 11:57 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote

If you had a FF 14mp sensor and a cropped 14mp sensor wouldn't it be very likely that the FF one would be better?
that depends entirely on the quality of the individual pixel.

the sensors of today (particulary the pentax/samsung CMOS) are much more advanced than the sensors of the past.
05-27-2008, 12:00 PM   #27
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yes, I understand how cropped sensors work. hince the comment about "its just a simple crop". Its all of these sports and wildlife photographers out there that love it so much. To them, they just increased their focal range. Go back and read the "benefits" of the D2x's High Speed Cropping mode.

now, going back.
1) viewfinder: I'm not bashing the pentaprism viewfinder at all. Pentax's is one of the best out there, that's a BIG reason why I switched from Nikon to penax and not Sony in the first place. But you weren't disagreeing with me in the first place
2) Lens: Nope, doesn't make a big difference at the long end, but makes a huge difference at the wide side of things. A 50mm lens is still a 50mm lens, just with the focal view of a 75, but without the added portrait benefits that the 75-135mm range offers. There is a reason that the 85mm and the 135mm lenses are the stranded for portraits. Pentax did good with their 70/77mm lenses, but the point is still there.
3) few inches of DoF; You brought it up, not me. But yes, I like to pop subjects out of a background in bright daylight, something that is easier to do at 2.8 on a full frame then 1.4 on a aps, yet gives you the same dof
4) half the image: Technically, no. You get everything you ask for at any focal range. But I want my 50mm lens to give me the same view as a 50mm lens, not a 75mm lens, and for me that is important and its the same at every focal range.
5) detail: nope. go and compare a well shot 5d photo with a k20d photo. there is more detail in the 5d shot then there is in the k20d. (or for brands sake, look at a 40d vs a 5d) this has more to do with pixel density then anything else. Is APS gaining? yeah, but think of where the full frame chip would be if the manufactures where to put in the same R&D budget.
6) Low Light: Yeah, they are finally catching up. but they aren't there yet. But there are many factors not brought into account.
7) crop: addressed at the beginning.

Now for the sake of arguments and beating a dead horse. I shoot with a k10d. its an aps sensor. I'm happy shooting with it (minus a few things here and there) and I can't wait to continue upgraded with Pentax, but I do dream of a day where I can go out and buy my full frame digital pentax camera.
05-27-2008, 12:15 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Hapo Quote
Exactly. And yet, even with all of the benefits that medium format had over 35mm (in the film days), 35mm film outnumbered MF by a ratio of about 100 to 1. Why? Price and size and convenience.

The same thing will happen with APS-C versus 24x36mm sensors. Which is why APS-C is not going anywhere. All of your reasons for wanting the bigger sensor, while for the most part valid, are just not compelling enough for most users, especially at the price differentials that will always exist.

I have no problem with people wanting to buy a FF camera. I do have a problem, however, when these people try to convince other people that they shouldn't buy DA lenses because they might not work ten years down the road, especially by convincing them to wait for a product that a) doesn't exist; and b) they probably don't need or wouldn't want to buy anyway. If DA lenses won't work in ten years, then neither will any of the legacy lenses. And if nobody buys any DA lenses that are available now because they're afraid they might not be future compatible, then, it is possible that Pentax will go out of business, in which case nobody wins (except Canon and Nikon).

That said, I think we can both agree that the original poster should not have been bummed out by buying the 70mm, at least. It's a great lens.
I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not trying to convince anyone to not buy a da lens, go for it if you want to. Hell, I'm waiting for my bush flag check to come in so I can go out and get me a 16-50.

as for film size: the APS film has gone out the door (hard to find anymore), the 'photo disk' has gone out the door, 110 film has gone out the door.
I see APS sensors moving into the point and shoot market and full frame taking over the dslr market, but by then, there might be a whole new batch of technology that pushes digital camera out of the way. who knows. All this is, is a theory.
05-27-2008, 12:20 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
Is it really that much more expensive to manufacture a FF sensor?
Yes! You need to make a lot more things bigger inside the camera, to make use of the bigger sensor: bigger mirror, bigger viewfinder, bigger mechanics to move that mirror, better dampening then, to reduce the bigger mirror's harder impact... Bigger shutter, too etc. So, it all adds up.

QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
And what if a company decided to throw down the gauntlet and make a FF consumer camera. While that is unlikely it isn't impossible. What I dont understand is what people's obsession over people who want a FF camera? Is it so bad?
If I see, that people debate the current price of the new K20 and wait for a significant drop before buying, I think, this is enough said about the willingness of people to shell out the money for a FF-camera…


QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
If you had a FF 14mp sensor and a cropped 14mp sensor wouldn't it be very likely that the FF one would be better?
At least with current technology a FF sensor with the same pixel count would have noticeably less noise, thus improving its low-light performance and its performance at higher ISO settings. In addition, and that would be my personally most important point, it would show a better expsoure latitude, due du the larger single pixels.

Anyway, there are significant drawbacks to FF sensors too, which somehow tend to get overlooked in many discussions:

FF sensors are much more prone to show severe vignetting, due to image forming rays coming in at an angle (as most lenses are not telecentric). Also, with fast lenses, corner sharpness is affected, as the rear depth of field is very shallow, which (again depending on the lens construction) might lead to the effect, that the image corners are outside the dof.

So, everybody can make his own choice, no sensor format offers the perfect solution. I think, that the APS-C size offers enough potential to improve in terms of noise and exposure latitude and I even guess, that the K20 can be bettered in this respect with improved firmware. After all, a DSLR is much more, than just the sensor…

Ben
05-27-2008, 12:20 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by chadvw Quote
I don't disagree with you on this. I'm not trying to convince anyone to not buy a da lens, go for it if you want to. Hell, I'm waiting for my bush flag check to come in so I can go out and get me a 16-50.

as for film size: the APS film has gone out the door (hard to find anymore), the 'photo disk' has gone out the door, 110 film has gone out the door.
I see APS sensors moving into the point and shoot market and full frame taking over the dslr market, but by then, there might be a whole new batch of technology that pushes digital camera out of the way. who knows. All this is, is a theory.
so if you are a true believer in evolving technology, why defend a return to the ways of the past.




and you can also look at it from a different persepctive

imagine FF being the future, and you have camera professionals that get so used to shooting APC that when given an FF camera they find the DOF too shallow and the composition to wide!

i can just see someone complaining "the DOF at f2.8 is too shallow! now i have to go up in aperture and lose valuable shutter speed!


the standard has changed, why cant people accept that?
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