full frame digital

beaumont · 05-26-2008, 09:14 PM

I believe that I read in one of the threads, a rumor of a full frame digital being released? Assuming that I'm using the correct terminology, does this mean that only the pre-DA lenses would work...or at the very least, would there be an advantage of the pre-DA's? (In other words, would this help justify the purchase of a FA 77 over a DA 70?)

Ole · 05-26-2008, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by beaumont

I believe that I read in one of the threads, a rumor of a full frame digital being released? Assuming that I'm using the correct terminology, does this mean that only the pre-DA lenses would work...or at the very least, would there be an advantage of the pre-DA's? (In other words, would this help justify the purchase of a FA 77 over a DA 70?)

To take full advantage of a FF sensor you need a lens which covers the 24mm x 36mm area. That means the pre-DA lenses.

I'd speculate that if Pentax releases a FF canera they'd also release a number of full frame lenses to go with it (or re-release their film lenses).

I'd also speculate that they would include a cropped mode, where you could use a DA lens.

Okami · 05-27-2008, 07:03 AM

(( And I had just decided i would save a little cheese by getting the 70

Zewrak · 05-27-2008, 07:36 AM

If your betting dollars, I'd bet on the low odds of no ff.

Rykoh · 05-27-2008, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by Okami

(( And I had just decided i would save a little cheese by getting the 70

Ugh. First off, the 70 does cover a 24 x 36mm sensor size, as tests have shown. Second, I don't understand why people won't just buy what works for what is available NOW... are most people here really going to shell out $3k for a full frame camera, if one did appear suddenly? And if so, is it that big of a deal to sell the one or two DA lenses they have and buy a new lens, if/when there is actually a FF product to use it on?

chadvw · 05-27-2008, 08:14 AM

1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles.

2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime.

beaumont · 05-27-2008, 08:19 AM

[QUOTE=chadvw;253493]1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles.

2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime.[/QUOTE

Just two of the things that I love about this forum...The wealth of knowledge...The willingness of people to help justify my desire to spend more money on lenses that using common sense are beyond my reach...

Next purchase will be the FA 77 ltd.

Thanks all for the feedback.

Ben_Edict · 05-27-2008, 08:20 AM

Pentax has publicly announced (via the German Marketing manager and one of the Americans, too), that the coming pro-Modell (Kx) will feature a new sensor format, BUT NOT full format. They called it something "new", which leaves space for speculation, as the crop factors of 1.5 - 1.6 - 1.3 are already in use. They have quite clearly stated, that the camera will not be full format, whatever be there reasoning...

Ben

Zewrak · 05-27-2008, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by chadvw

1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles.

2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime.

I really doubt your first point. But I hope you are right. I do agree with your second point. However, what choices do people have? The DA/DA* is what people wants now and thats where Pentax spend their research and development it seem. There are not enough second hand lenses to go around and prices will be insane if everyone went for the older lenses.

If Pentax really had plans for a FF camera, I don't think they would hide it as well as they do, by just releasing DA* lenses, but also plan ahead and make room in their lenspark for fullframes.

Okami · 05-27-2008, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Hapo

Ugh. First off, the 70 does cover a 24 x 36mm sensor size, as tests have shown. Second, I don't understand why people won't just buy what works for what is available NOW... are most people here really going to shell out $3k for a full frame camera, if one did appear suddenly? And if so, is it that big of a deal to sell the one or two DA lenses they have and buy a new lens, if/when there is actually a FF product to use it on?

If you are spending this much money on camera lenses why wouldn't you want something that you could use in the future on FF cameras. Especially since it seems like it's inevitable and there are lenses currently available that would work FF.

Rykoh · 05-27-2008, 09:21 AM

But that's what I'm saying.. the 70mm does cover a 24 x 36mm image circle. And it is very probable that Samsung will release a 24x36 camera in the next few years (don't know about Pentax). At the same time, APS-C size cameras are not going anywhere, at least for the next 5 - 10 years. This has been discussed ad-nauseum on the other forums, the upshot is, some people are always going to want FF, thinking nothing else will suffice, but that in all probability that number of people will remain very small compared to those who think APS-C is good enough (and are not willing to pay the premium that FF entails). Right now, FF cameras are less than 5% of the market, and this includes two cameras, the Canon 5D and the Nikon D3, which sell at far betters rates than any Pentax FF offering would ever hope to do. Maybe this will change when Sony brings their new A900 out, but we will have to see. Some people are predicting low sales; others are unsure, mostly because the pricing is still unknown. But look how many people around here are waiting for the K20d to drop to $800, which I think just demonstrates how few people are really able and willing to shell out big big money for a Pentax camera, full frame or not.

mattdm · 05-27-2008, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by chadvw

1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles.

I'm not sure I buy this. I haven't seen the progression of technology ever leading to things getting bigger.

reeftool · 05-27-2008, 09:43 AM

I'll agree with Matt on this one. I think in the long run all the camera makers are going to try to get higher image quality out of the smaller sensors. The full frame cameras will be there for the pros for a while but the smaller sensors are cheaper and cost less to produce. The Canon full frame is going after the Hasselblad market with a smaller camera. I think the format size our DSLR's are using will be around for quite a while.

Gooshin · 05-27-2008, 10:13 AM

FF is over rated

and those that bother making a fuss about it should get over themselves.

chadvw · 05-27-2008, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Zewrak

I really doubt your first point. But I hope you are right. I do agree with your second point. However, what choices do people have? The DA/DA* is what people wants now and thats where Pentax spend their research and development it seem. There are not enough second hand lenses to go around and prices will be insane if everyone went for the older lenses.

If Pentax really had plans for a FF camera, I don't think they would hide it as well as they do, by just releasing DA* lenses, but also plan ahead and make room in their lenspark for fullframes.

*cough* Nikon *cough* Nikon is still releasing DX lenses. The consumer market is where the money is at right now. All of these people that buy a dlsr and want a cheap one lens fits all solution. These people don't care what size chip is in the camera, they just want to have an auto function and an onboard flash to fire. So for pentax to sit there and spend the money on redoing their full frame lens lineup is not in the stars. Thats not to say they arn't spending some R&D to revamp their old lineup with currect specs/technology on paper (or in the computers now), but its not a high priority. (which I think agrees with you)

Another point is that, even if they release a full frame camera, its not going to be at the consumer / prosumer level. It might be another 10 years before there are more people on the full frame sensor then the smaller sensor. So they might release some of their high grade optics from years past as an FA2 and then re-do some of the FA lenses for the launch of the full frame camera.

All I'm trying to say is that why not make sure your purchase today will still work 5-10-20 years down the road?

05-26-2008, 09:14 PM	#1
beaumont Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 505	full frame digital I believe that I read in one of the threads, a rumor of a full frame digital being released? Assuming that I'm using the correct terminology, does this mean that only the pre-DA lenses would work...or at the very least, would there be an advantage of the pre-DA's? (In other words, would this help justify the purchase of a FA 77 over a DA 70?)

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05-26-2008, 10:00 PM	#2
Ole Administrator Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,408	Originally posted by beaumont I believe that I read in one of the threads, a rumor of a full frame digital being released? Assuming that I'm using the correct terminology, does this mean that only the pre-DA lenses would work...or at the very least, would there be an advantage of the pre-DA's? (In other words, would this help justify the purchase of a FA 77 over a DA 70?) To take full advantage of a FF sensor you need a lens which covers the 24mm x 36mm area. That means the pre-DA lenses. I'd speculate that if Pentax releases a FF canera they'd also release a number of full frame lenses to go with it (or re-release their film lenses). I'd also speculate that they would include a cropped mode, where you could use a DA lens.

05-27-2008, 07:03 AM	#3
Okami Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 376	(( And I had just decided i would save a little cheese by getting the 70

05-27-2008, 07:36 AM	#4
Zewrak Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nowhere, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 654	If your betting dollars, I'd bet on the low odds of no ff.

05-27-2008, 08:02 AM	#5
Rykoh Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 318	Originally posted by Okami (( And I had just decided i would save a little cheese by getting the 70 Ugh. First off, the 70 does cover a 24 x 36mm sensor size, as tests have shown. Second, I don't understand why people won't just buy what works for what is available NOW... are most people here really going to shell out $3k for a full frame camera, if one did appear suddenly? And if so, is it that big of a deal to sell the one or two DA lenses they have and buy a new lens, if/when there is actually a FF product to use it on?

05-27-2008, 08:14 AM	#6
chadvw New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Grand Rapids Posts: 21	1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles. 2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime.

05-27-2008, 08:19 AM	#7
beaumont Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 505 Original Poster	[QUOTE=chadvw;253493]1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles. 2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime.[/QUOTE Just two of the things that I love about this forum...The wealth of knowledge...The willingness of people to help justify my desire to spend more money on lenses that using common sense are beyond my reach... Next purchase will be the FA 77 ltd. Thanks all for the feedback.

05-27-2008, 08:20 AM	#8
Ben_Edict Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: SouthWest "Regio" Photos: Albums Posts: 3,309	Pentax has publicly announced (via the German Marketing manager and one of the Americans, too), that the coming pro-Modell (Kx) will feature a new sensor format, BUT NOT full format. They called it something "new", which leaves space for speculation, as the crop factors of 1.5 - 1.6 - 1.3 are already in use. They have quite clearly stated, that the camera will not be full format, whatever be there reasoning... Ben

05-27-2008, 08:25 AM	#9
Zewrak Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Nowhere, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 654	Originally posted by chadvw 1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles. 2) camera body's get replaced every 3-5 years (give or take a year or two on each side) in the digital era, lenses can last a lifetime, so why not look for lenses that will work 10 years from now? If your going to invest the money on something with such a long lifetime, make sure its going to last a lifetime. I really doubt your first point. But I hope you are right. I do agree with your second point. However, what choices do people have? The DA/DA* is what people wants now and thats where Pentax spend their research and development it seem. There are not enough second hand lenses to go around and prices will be insane if everyone went for the older lenses. If Pentax really had plans for a FF camera, I don't think they would hide it as well as they do, by just releasing DA* lenses, but also plan ahead and make room in their lenspark for fullframes.

05-27-2008, 08:30 AM	#10
Okami Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 376	Originally posted by Hapo Ugh. First off, the 70 does cover a 24 x 36mm sensor size, as tests have shown. Second, I don't understand why people won't just buy what works for what is available NOW... are most people here really going to shell out $3k for a full frame camera, if one did appear suddenly? And if so, is it that big of a deal to sell the one or two DA lenses they have and buy a new lens, if/when there is actually a FF product to use it on? If you are spending this much money on camera lenses why wouldn't you want something that you could use in the future on FF cameras. Especially since it seems like it's inevitable and there are lenses currently available that would work FF.

05-27-2008, 09:21 AM	#11
Rykoh Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 318	But that's what I'm saying.. the 70mm does cover a 24 x 36mm image circle. And it is very probable that Samsung will release a 24x36 camera in the next few years (don't know about Pentax). At the same time, APS-C size cameras are not going anywhere, at least for the next 5 - 10 years. This has been discussed ad-nauseum on the other forums, the upshot is, some people are always going to want FF, thinking nothing else will suffice, but that in all probability that number of people will remain very small compared to those who think APS-C is good enough (and are not willing to pay the premium that FF entails). Right now, FF cameras are less than 5% of the market, and this includes two cameras, the Canon 5D and the Nikon D3, which sell at far betters rates than any Pentax FF offering would ever hope to do. Maybe this will change when Sony brings their new A900 out, but we will have to see. Some people are predicting low sales; others are unsure, mostly because the pricing is still unknown. But look how many people around here are waiting for the K20d to drop to $800, which I think just demonstrates how few people are really able and willing to shell out big big money for a Pentax camera, full frame or not.

05-27-2008, 09:22 AM	#12
mattdm Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Boston, MA Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,948	Originally posted by chadvw 1) Full Frame will come. Don't know about the rumers being true or not, but the progression of technology shows that a full frame is coming and will eventualy knock out the smaller senors out of all the dslr line ups. Its a simple basis of technology evloution, just like more mega pixles. I'm not sure I buy this. I haven't seen the progression of technology ever leading to things getting bigger.

05-27-2008, 09:43 AM	#13
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,554	I'll agree with Matt on this one. I think in the long run all the camera makers are going to try to get higher image quality out of the smaller sensors. The full frame cameras will be there for the pros for a while but the smaller sensors are cheaper and cost less to produce. The Canon full frame is going after the Hasselblad market with a smaller camera. I think the format size our DSLR's are using will be around for quite a while.

05-27-2008, 10:13 AM	#14
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	FF is over rated and those that bother making a fuss about it should get over themselves.

05-27-2008, 10:22 AM	#15
chadvw New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Grand Rapids Posts: 21	Originally posted by Zewrak I really doubt your first point. But I hope you are right. I do agree with your second point. However, what choices do people have? The DA/DA* is what people wants now and thats where Pentax spend their research and development it seem. There are not enough second hand lenses to go around and prices will be insane if everyone went for the older lenses. If Pentax really had plans for a FF camera, I don't think they would hide it as well as they do, by just releasing DA* lenses, but also plan ahead and make room in their lenspark for fullframes. cough Nikon cough Nikon is still releasing DX lenses. The consumer market is where the money is at right now. All of these people that buy a dlsr and want a cheap one lens fits all solution. These people don't care what size chip is in the camera, they just want to have an auto function and an onboard flash to fire. So for pentax to sit there and spend the money on redoing their full frame lens lineup is not in the stars. Thats not to say they arn't spending some R&D to revamp their old lineup with currect specs/technology on paper (or in the computers now), but its not a high priority. (which I think agrees with you) Another point is that, even if they release a full frame camera, its not going to be at the consumer / prosumer level. It might be another 10 years before there are more people on the full frame sensor then the smaller sensor. So they might release some of their high grade optics from years past as an FA2 and then re-do some of the FA lenses for the launch of the full frame camera. All I'm trying to say is that why not make sure your purchase today will still work 5-10-20 years down the road?