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01-30-2015, 11:11 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote



The FA20-35 would be not bad for price or for size/weight, that's for sure. Maybe QC apparently.
.
FA20-35 is 2.5 times lower price than DA20-40 and has no AF issues, no decentering, no need of AF calibration.

To tweak AF for Pentax zoom with in-camera adjustment is unreal. Pentax has no adjustment at all focal length as Olympus has.
No AF calibration for every AF point.

To correct AF of Pentax zoom at home is impossible.

---------- Post added 01-30-2015 at 11:14 PM ----------

As for colours - FA is "warm lamp light". DA is "digital contrast".

01-31-2015, 05:19 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
FA20-35 is 2.5 times lower price than DA20-40 and has no AF issues, no decentering, no need of AF calibration.


To tweak AF for Pentax zoom with in-camera adjustment is unreal. Pentax has no adjustment at all focal length as Olympus has.
No AF calibration for every AF point.
There obviously less chance to see any AF issue with an f/4 wide to normal angle zoom than say with a tele/fast apperture lense.
- dof is great
- most AF sensors are optimized for f/5.6 while only a few body are optimized for f/2.8 on a few points.


At least, your copy perform well but I would not bet that all sample of 20-35 are perfect, even more so now you can only find them used. With any lense that can be brought new, you can change the lense if there is a problem for quite some time for free. Also if a problem occurs, the replacement part are more likely to be available with a current lense than with a legacy lense.

For all this AF thing, honestly since i got a K3, all my lenses prime and zoon need no calibration and perform just fine. To me this was more a body problem than a lense problem and then you'need to have the right lense for the right body, same lense could be ok with 1 body and bad with another... But with the progress made on the latest body, the adjustements are something that are far less needed than before.
01-31-2015, 11:29 AM - 5 Likes   #33
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Here's my own selections from the FA 20-35. Many of these shots are taken in challenging light situations, where shadows had to be raised (which will tend to lower contrast), or where one is dealing with difficult atmospheric conditions. The DA 20-40 may have an advantage in those situations because of the HD coatings.


















Is the (probably slightly) greater contrast of the DA 20-40 worth the 2 to 3 times price difference? Maybe. I love contrasty lenses, and I would have considered getting the DA 20-40 if I had sufficient funds. But I still find myself preferring the color rendering the FA 20-35, especially how it handles blue and green colors.
01-31-2015, 12:12 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
There obviously less chance to see any AF issue with an f/4 wide to normal angle zoom than say with a tele/fast apperture lense.
- dof is great
- most AF sensors are optimized for f/5.6 while only a few body are optimized for f/2.8 on a few points.

I say about my experience with DA20-40. It's easy to understand. Several users from Russian Penta-Club had the same issues with 20-40.
I even don't say about QC of 16-50 It's the same league...

Please, don't say obvious things and don't be a teacher. I had been using photo camera for 35 years.

01-31-2015, 02:00 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeverettfine Quote
You may think it "looks" inexpensive, but you will change your mind when you pick one up. Reminds me of the fabulous build of the old Pentax screw mount lenses with the focus ring design etc...very retro. I found it impressive right away. It is certainly on my list of possible acquisitions.
Sorry, I meant the look of the photos. I have no doubt about the excellent build quality and physical appearance of the lens.
QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
When it comes to color rendering, my personal favorites are the ghostless coated FA lenses and the wide angle DAs using ED glass (like the DA 10-17 and the DA 15). I have yet to make up my mind about the HD rendering. I'd really like to use an HD coated lens and see how the images respond to simple adjustments in Lightroom before making a decision on that one.
Those are my favorites for color rendering too - FA43, DA15, DA10-17 (in that order).
QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
I don't, in any case, expect zooms to exhibit any sort of special rendering --- I look to primes for that. What I want in a zoom is outstanding color and contrast, and a reasonable level of sharpness. I produce images to be displayed in galleries and other public places, and to be sold online; and very few, if any, of the individuals who view my images in public or consider buying them online are going to notice the 3D rendering, or the lack thereof, in any of my landscape images, although they will certainly notice the colors and the contrast (which are primarily what gives a landscape image "pop," clarity, and "bite").
But don't you think you're going to have more trouble selling the images? I don't expect the customers to consciously notice these qualities. But I think they're less likely to be attracted to the images.
01-31-2015, 02:06 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Here's my own selections from the FA 20-35. Many of these shots are taken in challenging light situations, where shadows had to be raised (which will tend to lower contrast), or where one is dealing with difficult atmospheric conditions. The DA 20-40 may have an advantage in those situations because of the HD coatings.
Excellent set of images.
01-31-2015, 02:11 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Here's my own selections from the FA 20-35. Many of these shots are taken in challenging light situations, where shadows had to be raised (which will tend to lower contrast), or where one is dealing with difficult atmospheric conditions. The DA 20-40 may have an advantage in those situations because of the HD coatings.
Thanks for sharing your photos. Many of them make me want to be there. In fact, some of them make me feel like I almost am there.

I haven't got that with anything I've seen from the DA20-40. Just look like photos. I'm always aware I'm looking at photos. Nothing pulls me in. No emotional experience. If I try to imagine I'm there, it doesn't play its part. It doesn't give me enough back to sustain the illusion. What's the point?


Now leave me alone while I listen to my awesome iTunes music on my iPhone. Makes me feel like I'm listening to music played live, almost as if I'm right there in Staples Center during basketball timeouts!

Last edited by DSims; 01-31-2015 at 02:29 PM.
01-31-2015, 06:42 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I say about my experience with DA20-40. It's easy to understand. Several users from Russian Penta-Club had the same issues with 20-40.
I even don't say about QC of 16-50 It's the same league...

Please, don't say obvious things and don't be a teacher. I had been using photo camera for 35 years.
At least here it is more clear: you did have a 20-40 and got a defective sample. That's normal you don't like it then. That's normal it happen to other people too. Question would be what % and if it is worse than other lenses or for your example 20-35.

Without the context you provided, I was not really possible to be specific...

01-31-2015, 06:50 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Here's my own selections from the FA 20-35. Many of these shots are taken in challenging light situations, where shadows had to be raised (which will tend to lower contrast), or where one is dealing with difficult atmospheric conditions. The DA 20-40 may have an advantage in those situations because of the HD coatings.

Is the (probably slightly) greater contrast of the DA 20-40 worth the 2 to 3 times price difference? Maybe. I love contrasty lenses, and I would have considered getting the DA 20-40 if I had sufficient funds. But I still find myself preferring the color rendering the FA 20-35, especially how it handles blue and green colors.
I see very nice picture indeed. I think 2-3 wouldn't look any better for sure and at least 1-2 would likely have more clarity overall with the 20-40 (or DA15 that is also great for that). Difficult to be 100% sure of course.

If you prefer the FA colors, this has to be a question of what is more important for you. Constrast/Clarity or colors? Because really, depending of the scene one aspect might become more important than the other.

But yes the price is a good factor, for sure
01-31-2015, 09:13 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by DSims Quote
Thanks for sharing your photos. Many of them make me want to be there. In fact, some of them make me feel like I almost am there.

I haven't got that with anything I've seen from the DA20-40. Just look like photos. I'm always aware I'm looking at photos. Nothing pulls me in. No emotional experience. If I try to imagine I'm there, it doesn't play its part. It doesn't give me enough back to sustain the illusion. What's the point?
An interesting approach to viewing photography, and very different to my own.

Looking at Greg's FA 20-35 photographs, I do not get the feeling of "being there" so much.
But that doesn't stop them being very pleasing images in their own right:
the graphic quality in the first,
a flatter, pastel quality to the mountains in the second and the plants along the path in the third,
and more of a water-color quality to the seventh.

As for the DA 20-40, the basic "emotional experience" it conveys,
a kind of sunny, optimistic freshness,
even on subjects such as literal "natures mortes" which might be too distressing to post here,
is a major part of its appeal to me.
Distinctly different from the ominous qualtiy of the DA 35 Ltd away from the macro range.

To me, the different qualities of these lenses are part of their attraction,
going beyond the kind of unexceptionable direct recoding
that you find in "professional zooms".

Another Pentax lens with a strong character is the FA*24.
I was always impressed with the colors it produced,
but ultimately decided that its rendering wasn't to my taste,
coming across as waxy or cadaverous.

So in comparing the FA 20-35 with the DA 20-40,
I don't think that anyone needs to feel compelled to like either one.
Just get the lens that you decide works for you.
02-01-2015, 02:14 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
So in comparing the FA 20-35 with the DA 20-40,
I don't think that anyone needs to feel compelled to like either one.
Just get the lens that you decide works for you.
Very well said and... It might seem obvious but... The comparison should be made under the same identical conditions, e.g. subject, lighting, exposure, w/o PP, in order to be reliable. Anyhow, both lenses are surely capable of delivering pleasing images.
BTW, Greg, I have enjoyed very much your review of the 20-35 in your blog.
Cheers
02-01-2015, 03:50 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
So in comparing the FA 20-35 with the DA 20-40,
I don't think that anyone needs to feel compelled to like either one.
Just get the lens that you decide works for you.
Agree.

QuoteOriginally posted by vrolok:
Very well said and... It might seem obvious but... The comparison should be made under the same identical conditions, e.g. subject, lighting, exposure, w/o PP, in order to be reliable. Anyhow, both lenses are surely capable of delivering pleasing images.
The identical condition etc it is already difficult, you need to have the 2 lenses... And then you can't just compare 1 or 2 scenes, to really compare the lenses, you would need to do that on many different occasions, different kind of image to get an identity card of the lense.I think nobody ever does that.

But if you compare 1-2 images like many do, you'll see only one aspect like how the DA20-40 supposed to handle extreme contrast better. And you might miss the interresting color of FA20-35 or the bokeh/subject separation of 20-40...

Another approach that is more practical to me is to look still at hundred photos from the lense from different photographers, subject etc and try to extract their signature from that.
02-01-2015, 04:40 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Another approach that is more practical to me is to look still at hundred photos from the lense from different photographers, subject etc and try to extract their signature from that.
Then I should envy you because to me this is just unfeasible and unreliable, especially in digital era.
Cheers
02-01-2015, 05:12 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by vrolok Quote
Then I should envy you because to me this is just unfeasible and unreliable, especially in digital era.
Cheers
But then what better approach do you want to go for?

If you compare 1, 2, 3 image, it is obvious you'll get very limited results. Even if you go for some stress test, you may fail to trigger the right scene that may show the lense to strugle or truly shine.

- Background blur or bokeh: the performance depend a lot of the apperture, background distance, overall contrast and size of background feature. It also depend a lot of colors. Bokeh frigging is terrible on test chart examples on black & white tests and would be invisible in other situations:
- OOF/In focus transistion: the performance depend of apperture, lighting, contrast/colors, subject distance.
- Colors: Each lense have its strength and weakness and the rendering for a baby portrait, man portrait, youg/old woman is really different. And this is again very different to what you'd get out of snow landscape, subttle foggy day, in a forest or near a waterfall than what you would want out of a sunset, a storm. Interior shoots, sports, wildlifes would be different constraints again.
- Constrast/Clarity... The need is completely different depending of the initial contrast/clarity of the scene, if you plan to do HDR anyway and how you want the result to look like.
- Flare: On most photos flare just add anoying artifacts and reduce contrast. Most of the time this is unwanted... Until you want to achieve this dreamy look. And then you'd need it to show.

The very basic level of analysis of the gear is just what the lense record. So the spectrum graph we see from time to time, the sharpness charts and a few basic optical aberations analysed. This is just chirurgical and technical analysis.

Then there how the lense is usefull to make interresting photos. And this shift completely from theses numbers. Thinking you'd have to go for the sharpness lense or always the same kind of rendering is kind of thinking that all painting should be all done with the most precise, smallest brush. The colors rendering is to think all paints should use the same paints and that all red should have the same look. To think that everything can be fixed in post processing is like thinking that because you can always mix 2 paint together, you'll get the same color by melting 2 others on oil painting and aquarelle.

Thinking you can fully analyse what a lense provide with 2-3 picture is a bit like thinking you can fully grasp a kind of paint art by looking at 2 or 3 painting from it.

Take northcoastgreg pictures for example, the only picture I would have post processed the same would have been the one just before the last. The other I'am very likely to have processed them differently. Different tastes, different moods. Depending of what one want to get out of the picture, the best lense to use would be obviously different.

Photography is both just a technical tool to record things but also an art. Modern days tend to the opposite of what is art to it. While it is now easy to get in focus, technically perfect photo and that many master the classics of compositing/lighting, we miss the fantazy, the creativity of having really different tool doing really different things.
02-01-2015, 06:06 AM   #45
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Nicolas, thanks for the lecture, though not needed. Luckily the OP will have soon both lenses and will be able to make a fair comparison.
Cheers
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