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02-22-2015, 04:50 PM - 6 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Karma merely exists in ones mind.
As do morals.

02-22-2015, 05:11 PM - 3 Likes   #17
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Yes, I suppose the seller should always do a little homework before the sale. It's the smart thing to do. It is never really a buyers place to educate the seller, unless you are a dealer and care about your reputation. I have also come across some smoking deals a few times and been the recipient of free gear that was worth hundreds of dollars (if I ever sold the freebies, guess where the money would go...back to the kind souls who gave to me...but that's just me).

However, what really stinks is to find an amazing deal from someone without a clue, and then proceed to squeak an extra $15 dollars out of an already stupid low price. I guess what I'm saying is that when a person I'd blessed enough to stumble across something they really want for an insane (uneducated) price...just pay the money they are asking and enjoy your own good fortune.

I can only think that one would want their own heirs to be treated the same when dealing with your estate. Just something to think about.
02-22-2015, 05:57 PM   #18
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We should wait and see what condition the lenses are in before we judge whether the deal was good, or fair.

If the lenses are full of fungus, or all scratched on the rear element, even $35 might not be a bargain.
02-22-2015, 06:00 PM   #19
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Interesting discussion.

This type of situation appears occasionally - a great deal is found by a member who is excited by the lode. The seller doesn't seem to know much about photography or gear. A moral debate ensues in the forum.

Let me introduce a few more considerations:

- What would be a reasonable price for the buyer to offer? Why that price?

- What is the threshold between fair and unfair prices?

- Is this situation different from snagging a great eBay deal because the seller listed it as "Pentex" and only one person bid?

- How would the debate go if the seller was a millionaire?

02-22-2015, 06:28 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
Interesting discussion.

This type of situation appears occasionally - a great deal is found by a member who is excited by the lode. The seller doesn't seem to know much about photography or gear. A moral debate ensues in the forum.

Let me introduce a few more considerations:

- What would be a reasonable price for the buyer to offer? Why that price?

- What is the threshold between fair and unfair prices?

- Is this situation different from snagging a great eBay deal because the seller listed it as "Pentex" and only one person bid?

- How would the debate go if the seller was a millionaire?
Doubt there'd be a debate at all, a millionaire would either toss them in the bin or give them to a charity shop. Very unlikely he'd offer them on Craig's List.
02-22-2015, 06:31 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dewman Quote
I specifically asked him to "carefully" read the numbers on the 50mm lens to make sure that it did NOT say f:2.0. He assured me that it did, indeed, say f: 1.2..... as in f (colon) 1 period 2. As far as me worrying about someone in "California" screwing me over.... the laugh would be on me! It WASN'T in California, but a mid-western town.... and I WASN'T born yesterday! I learned long ago to CYA!

And Search Tempest, which searches all of Craigslist would solve that problem.

and also, it does not have an F:1.2 anywhere on the lens. So if he told you that then he is blind or a liar. The lens will say "SMC Pentax-A 1:1.2 50mm".
02-22-2015, 06:46 PM - 1 Like   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
- What would be a reasonable price for the buyer to offer? Why that price?

- What is the threshold between fair and unfair prices?

- Is this situation different from snagging a great eBay deal because the seller listed it as "Pentex" and only one person bid?

- How would the debate go if the seller was a millionaire?
OK, good questions Craig. I'll take this up.

1. What is a reasonable price to offer? I wouldn't necessarily offer a price. I would tell the seller that his father had a fine collection of lenses, and obviously loved photography, and that the lenses could actually be quite valuable. I would suggest that he withdraw them from sale straight away. I would offer to help fix some realistic prices (presumably <30 mins of searching could do that). If the seller said, "Look, I'm grateful to you, but I don't care about the money, I just want to get rid of them", I would say OK thanks but I have to give you $100 for them. And (depending on the vibe of the conversation) tell me more about your dad. There's a good chance he might want to talk. If the lenses turn out to be as good as they seem, I would make a donation to a suitable charity (e.g. something reflecting the old man's passion, or something reflecting mine).
2. Difference between fair and unfair? Hard to draw the line, but I think most of us know the difference between a bargain and a steal. $1,000 worth of lenses for $35 is not in the grey zone.
3. Difference from a mistake on ebay? When you advertise on ebay you are invited to check other sales to determine a price for the item. You are also invited to check the terms of your ad. In those circumstances, if the seller fixes a very low price (buy it now) I wouldn't feel obliged to look behind it. (In fact I might be suspicious.) If it's an auction, the price isn't determined until the very end; someone else might snipe with a low but realistic price. And I wouldn't feel obliged to contact the seller to point out that they have misspelt the item or put it in the wrong category. Maybe the difference is that ebay is just an open marketplace and sellers enter with their eyes open, whereas a private sale is more of a personal transaction.
4. If the seller was a millionaire. I don't think it matters as far as determining the right thing to do. Anyway I probably wouldn't find out they were a millionaire until I had explained that the lenses could be valuable. (Just because the address is in a wealthy area doesn't necessarily mean they are loaded. In fact lots of middle class people are doing it hard now.)
02-22-2015, 06:53 PM   #23
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It's also a very interesting exercise in game theory!

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
What would be a reasonable price for the buyer to offer? Why that price?
The crux of the issue. The lens is "worth" what someone is willing to pay for it. At the moment, you are the only one willing to do so because the item has fallen into limbo, so to speak. If you offer what you believe to be reasonable, are you still cheating the guy? Someone out there might be willing to pay more, after all. Are you cheating the seller by buying it at any price except the absolute maximum a reasonable person would pay (say, the highest price you've ever seen it go for)? One could argue that you are, since you're setting the price for the seller without his informed consent.

The game theory part comes in here: it you are fair with the seller by telling him what he has, you expect that he should be fair to you. If he was selling it for $50 and you tell him it's worth $500, the fair thing for him to do would be to sell it to you at a substantial discount. But, of course, he doesn't have to do so and is likely to ask you for $500. Now he has cheated you: he has taken advantage of your expertise and knowledge without compensating you for it.

Of course, you may split the difference and tell him it's worth $400 so that when he demands $400, you have already taken out your "honesty fee." But you did so at a price that he did not agree to. In effect, by making the deal better for him, you may have still cheated him.

---------- Post added 02-22-15 at 07:58 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
- How would the debate go if the seller was a millionaire?
Doesn't matter. If selling price were dependent on how much the person needs the money, then all of us should be doubling the asking price whenever we buy an item from a person much worse off than ourselves, even if the asking price is perfectly fair.

02-22-2015, 07:18 PM - 1 Like   #24
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Sometimes it's easier to just get rid of stuff than to try to get fair market value. Who knows, maybe trying to cash in on camera gear is the least of the seller's problems.

Dewman, I hope you take good care of the glass coming your way and take amazing photos with it. Hopefully you'll inspire your own children to enjoy photography and will be able to pass that glass on to them, or at least get them to appreciate it for what it is.
02-22-2015, 09:02 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
Gotta agree that whatever one's position on paying the asking price, it's a seriously scummy thing to do to convince the guy to lower the price to $35 when you know what these things are worth. And then to brag about it here? What kind of reaction did you expect from us, approval? Frankly I expect far better out of you, an ex-military-man, Dewman. You are taking a guy to the cleaners whose dad just died (or more accurately, BECAUSE his Dad just died) for Pete's sake.

It's pretty telling looking at the reactions of those who do approve, too. At Dlanor trying to justify it by saying "It could be some Crack head that just stole them from his fathers house and simply needs another fix and cold care less": WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH YOU? You realize receiving stolen property is a felony, right?
.
Oh Yes ! The internet NEVER lies especially Craigslist....lol. I don't need to Justify anything to some self righteous Buggars on here ! The guy wanted $50.... he asked for an offer and accepted $35....a deal is a deal.
If hes ignorant that isn't the OP's fault nor responsibility.
Never dreamed that getting a good deal on a Pentax lens and posting it on this Forum was a "Moral" issue that had to come with "Good Karma" ! A deal is a deal....and this isn't Sunday School !

Last edited by Dlanor Sekao; 02-22-2015 at 09:26 PM.
02-22-2015, 10:50 PM - 2 Likes   #26
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I fall into the camp that would want to tell the seller that his price is too low. I would blow the deal to ensure I felt it was fair to both parties. I'm just built that way.

I also don't feel it is completely immoral to not feel my way.

I wouldn't hesitate to take an auction for these items at this price. I wouldn't hesitate on a buy it now. EBay has good tools for seller to determine the value. The addition of competition from other bidders makes it seem more fair. Craigslist is first come, first serve.
02-22-2015, 10:54 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Oh Yes ! The internet NEVER lies especially Craigslist....lol. I don't need to Justify anything to some self righteous Buggars on here ! The guy wanted $50.... he asked for an offer and accepted $35....a deal is a deal.
If hes ignorant that isn't the OP's fault nor responsibility.
Never dreamed that getting a good deal on a Pentax lens and posting it on this Forum was a "Moral" issue that had to come with "Good Karma" ! A deal is a deal....and this isn't Sunday School !
...coming from the person who in post#3 said ;
QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Heyyy....You said a 1.2 ??? If it is....... then YOU are a thief !......lol.
And in post#9 said ;
QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
Hey ! I just found the listing ! I offered him $100 bucks and am driving there now ! Thanks !
02-22-2015, 11:28 PM   #28
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Interesting discussion.

Put me in the camp of people that would grab this deal if available.

It's a bit patronizing to presume that a person selling something that is way undervalued doesn't know what they're doing. If they're savvy enough to post something for sale on Craigslist, they surely know how to do basic internet research to get a clue as to the value of something.

In one of my earlier transactions on the forums I listed something for sale that was far below its market value. Someone actually messaged me to tell me that I was selling myself short. It made me mad. Do you not think I know what I'm doing? (I have over 30 feedback [counting only feedback that's been collected, it's way more than that]. I know what I'm doing)

Here are valid and non-nefarious reasons why someone might sell something for well below its value.

- They need quick cash (emergency)
- They don't want to deal with the hassle of a prolonged sale (their time is more valuable)
- They just don't care

Today I upgraded my crappy home office chair to a nice(r) faux lather one. It was being sold at a garage sale for $5. There were 8 more chairs like the one I bought, and a dozen more of differing styles. There was also a slew of office equipment there going for super cheap, so I called my mother and she came along with my dad and their truck and got some nice stuff for really cheap too. I asked the sellers why they were doing this, and they said that some random non-profit just abandoned it all and they didn't want to deal with it. They just wanted it gone. Should I have told them that they could have gotten way more for their chairs and office equipment through Craigslist?

Anyhoo, I've gotten my fair share of lens deals on Craigslist. It's allowed me to try out many of Pentax's fine lens offerings, and make some side bucks in the process. Plus, I enjoy the hustle.

At the end of last year I snagged an FA 31 for quite the steal. No apologies from me.

I once tracked an FA 50 1.7 (If I remember correctly) through the local Craigslist listing. It was being sold for $20. I emailed, but just missed out. I saw it later on Craigslist again, this time for a higher amount (I think over $100, still a good deal). I emailed, and again just missed out. The next day, I saw it on the forums for its used market value. I bet I'm the only person (aside from the seller) to have tracked that lens through its entire journey.

To whoever managed to snag those lenses, have fun with your new toys! A great deal makes a great story.
02-23-2015, 01:50 AM - 1 Like   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarlVonTapia Quote
If they're savvy enough to post something for sale on Craigslist, they surely know how to do basic internet research to get a clue as to the value of something.
You clearly have a much different local Craigslist than I do, if you think all Craigslist users qualify for the term "savvy" or know how to do much of anything besides post on craigslist, which isn't any more difficult than posting on Facebook or youtube.

OP, maybe you should suggest that when your buddy meets the guy, he assess the situation and if the fellow is in poor circumstances, up your offer, considerably. Something like "Dewman asked me to check these to see if they were in good condition. If not, he'd have paid the $35 for them, but since they are, he'd like to give you $___. Your father had a fine collection of lenses, and we're sorry he's not around to use them anymore. What sorts of photos did he most enjoy taking with them? Dewman says he'll take a few shots in homage and send them to you later on" -- something like that, anyway.

Of course, if the guy hated his dad's guts and can't wait to be rid of the stuff, take it at $35.
02-23-2015, 02:13 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by narual Quote
You clearly have a much different local Craigslist than I do, if you think all Craigslist users qualify for the term "savvy" or know how to do much of anything besides post on craigslist, which isn't any more difficult than posting on Facebook or youtube.
The mere fact that someone posts something for sale on any Craigslist listing in any location to sell something suggests a familiarity with the concept of the internet, a marketplace, and e-commerce.

The notion of "Ebaying" something is such a common trope that's been ingrained into popular society since Ebay first existed. Someone would have had to live under a rock to not have heard of such a thing over the past decade or more. (I mention Ebay to show that the idea of selling things on the internet shouldn't be this "WOW!" thing for anyone)

Thinking that the seller doesn't know what they're doing when they list those lenses for sale at that price isn't just patronizing, it's flat out insulting to them. They most likely aren't troglodytes that just discovered the internet this year. Give them some credit.

To me, the seller seems like he just wants to make a quick, hassle-free $50 ish dollars. He's happy, the buyer is happy. That seems like the more likely scenario.
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