Speculations on the new D-Fa large diameter standard zoom

DeadJohn · 02-26-2015, 10:52 AM

I realize the camera industry is not all about me, but my desire for the FF is a 24-120ish f4 lens. I'd rather have the extra zoom. The FA Limiteds already fill my needs for shooting in darkness and getting thin DOF.

**Rondec** · 02-26-2015, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up?

Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass?

The new DFA lenses announced are not rebadged. Why on earth would they rebadge the 24-70 which will be the keystone of their FF system for years to come. It will arguably be more important long term than the body. That lens will make or break them.

I don't think it is a question of them developing their own glass. It is more a question of filling out a line up while they develop lenses of their own. A rebadged Tamron could be a place holder until such time as they develop their own lens for that spot.

**geomez** · 02-26-2015, 11:28 AM

I'm really interested in the Pentax/Tokina relationship. AFIK, the collaboration resulted in the DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, DA 10-17 Fish-eye, and the DA Ltd 35mm Macro. Am I missing any?

I know a lot of people are jumping on Stavri about his naivete regarding the Pentax/Tokina relationship, but I'm naive too. The relationship was a result of Hoya's ownership of Pentax? If so, are we sure there is no longer any cooperation?

Originally posted by stevebrot

I think that is a reasonable statement given that the last Tokina collaboration was some years ago and Pentax has developed several lenses since without Tokina involvement. You might want to consider that the technology flow on the DA* zooms was from Pentax to Tokina and not the other way around. The Tokina lenses were derived from the Pentax versions.

Steve

So the lenses were Pentax designs and rebranded as Tokina? What did Pentax get out of the deal?

stevebrot · 02-26-2015, 12:07 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Stavri

We're in a speculative thread so speculations are In order, untill we hear something concrete I'm all ears...

Speculation? I speculate that Ricoh/Pentax will collaborate with Nikon on all future lenses. After all, the F and K mounts share almost identical flange registration distances. Makes perfect sense, eh?

Or...how about a REAL WILD SPECULATION? How about the theory that Pentax will leverage its historic depth for designing and building high performance optics to produce lenses in-house? Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products.

Steve

stevebrot · 02-26-2015, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up?

Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass?

It is Stavri's thing, recently.

Steve

stevebrot · 02-26-2015, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by geomez

So the lenses were Pentax designs and rebranded as Tokina? What did Pentax get out of the deal?

Manufacturing capacity.

BTW, the Tokina lenses were not rebranded. The relationship is akin to some of what happens in the automotive world. Several years ago, the Mazda MX-6 and Ford probe were built on parallel assembly lines in Michigan. The tech was mostly Mazda, the development was collaborative, and the manufacturing was done by Ford. Hoya owned a significant share of Tokina and 100% of Pentax at the time. Similarly, Ford had a stake in Mazda.

Steve

Stavri · 02-26-2015, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Speculation? I speculate that Ricoh/Pentax will collaborate with Nikon on all future lenses. After all, the F and K mounts share almost identical flange registration distances. Makes perfect sense, eh?

Or...how about a REAL WILD SPECULATION? How about the theory that Pentax will leverage its historic depth for designing and building high performance optics to produce lenses in-house? Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products.

Steve

You seem to forget about the DA 18-270mm.

In my defense I did predict that the new FF would be coming out in 2015, from a "guy who knew guy who worked at Ricoh". I'm used to being ridiculed, my heart is young and can take it.

Last edited by Stavri; 02-26-2015 at 12:28 PM.

stevebrot · 02-26-2015, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Stavri

Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products.

Originally posted by Stavri

You seem to forget about the DA 18-270mm

My understanding was this was a carryover project to replace the previous Tamron-made DA 18-250...not a Ricoh initiative, but I have been wrong before. Your point is well-taken.

As for your prediction regarding the FF camera...I do believe that Monochrome beat you to the draw there. I suspect he is the guy who knows the guy...

Steve

Stavri · 02-26-2015, 12:42 PM

I"m not pretending to be the first to have ushered the news of the new FF. As far as i know during official interviews Tokina has stated that they're open to future collaborations, whether that's already happening behind the scenes I don't know. I for one am excited if they're partnership gets renewed, their joined venture has produced great stuff. Their At-X 24-70 is new enough to make it a potential excellent performer.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-26-2015, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by ChristianRock

Maybe they hired engineers on a per-job basis, instead of a full-on collaboration. From internet sources, that is how the FA 31 Limited was created - a couple of engineers were contracted just for that lens and they were not Pentax employees (after Asahi Pentax decided that they wouldn't release Hirakawa Jun's 31mm f2.4 lens that was based on the old 30mm f2.8).

This is not true. It was designed by Pentax but not Hirakawa. That is what Hirakawa said at the time of its release on his own mailing list....

ChristianRock · 02-26-2015, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

This is not true. It was designed by Pentax but not Hirakawa. That is what Hirakawa said at the time of its release on his own mailing list....

You are right, the designers of the FA 31mm are Mr Takayuki Ito and Mr Masayuki Murata. I had done a flawed search previously. I've deleted my previous post.

Winder · 02-26-2015, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Stavri

Pardon my nonchalance, I didn't literally mean the past 2-3 years. We're in a speculative thread so speculations are In order, untill we hear something concrete I'm all ears...

Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.." you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina.

Stavri · 02-26-2015, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.." you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina.

I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know..

Winder · 02-26-2015, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Stavri

I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know..

Good. When you verify that you can say that the collaboration is a given.

**hjoseph7** · 02-26-2015, 05:47 PM

I hope its an FA-limited metal housing, aperture ring and all ala 20-40 f2.8-4.

02-26-2015, 12:10 PM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by geomez So the lenses were Pentax designs and rebranded as Tokina? What did Pentax get out of the deal? Manufacturing capacity. BTW, the Tokina lenses were not rebranded. The relationship is akin to some of what happens in the automotive world. Several years ago, the Mazda MX-6 and Ford probe were built on parallel assembly lines in Michigan. The tech was mostly Mazda, the development was collaborative, and the manufacturing was done by Ford. Hoya owned a significant share of Tokina and 100% of Pentax at the time. Similarly, Ford had a stake in Mazda. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 02-26-2015 at 12:17 PM.

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02-26-2015, 10:52 AM	#16
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	I realize the camera industry is not all about me, but my desire for the FF is a 24-120ish f4 lens. I'd rather have the extra zoom. The FA Limiteds already fill my needs for shooting in darkness and getting thin DOF.

02-26-2015, 10:57 AM	#17
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by jatrax Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up? Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass? The new DFA lenses announced are not rebadged. Why on earth would they rebadge the 24-70 which will be the keystone of their FF system for years to come. It will arguably be more important long term than the body. That lens will make or break them. I don't think it is a question of them developing their own glass. It is more a question of filling out a line up while they develop lenses of their own. A rebadged Tamron could be a place holder until such time as they develop their own lens for that spot.

02-26-2015, 11:28 AM	#18
geomez Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Roanoke, Virginia, USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,760	I'm really interested in the Pentax/Tokina relationship. AFIK, the collaboration resulted in the DA* 16-50, DA* 50-135, DA 10-17 Fish-eye, and the DA Ltd 35mm Macro. Am I missing any? I know a lot of people are jumping on Stavri about his naivete regarding the Pentax/Tokina relationship, but I'm naive too. The relationship was a result of Hoya's ownership of Pentax? If so, are we sure there is no longer any cooperation? Originally posted by stevebrot I think that is a reasonable statement given that the last Tokina collaboration was some years ago and Pentax has developed several lenses since without Tokina involvement. You might want to consider that the technology flow on the DA* zooms was from Pentax to Tokina and not the other way around. The Tokina lenses were derived from the Pentax versions. Steve So the lenses were Pentax designs and rebranded as Tokina? What did Pentax get out of the deal?

02-26-2015, 12:07 PM - 1 Like	#19
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Stavri We're in a speculative thread so speculations are In order, untill we hear something concrete I'm all ears... Speculation? I speculate that Ricoh/Pentax will collaborate with Nikon on all future lenses. After all, the F and K mounts share almost identical flange registration distances. Makes perfect sense, eh? Or...how about a REAL WILD SPECULATION? How about the theory that Pentax will leverage its historic depth for designing and building high performance optics to produce lenses in-house? Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products. Steve

02-26-2015, 12:08 PM	#20
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by jatrax Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up? Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass? It is Stavri's thing, recently. Steve

02-26-2015, 12:14 PM	#22
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	Originally posted by stevebrot Speculation? I speculate that Ricoh/Pentax will collaborate with Nikon on all future lenses. After all, the F and K mounts share almost identical flange registration distances. Makes perfect sense, eh? Or...how about a REAL WILD SPECULATION? How about the theory that Pentax will leverage its historic depth for designing and building high performance optics to produce lenses in-house? Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products. Steve You seem to forget about the DA 18-270mm. In my defense I did predict that the new FF would be coming out in 2015, from a "guy who knew guy who worked at Ricoh". I'm used to being ridiculed, my heart is young and can take it. Last edited by Stavri; 02-26-2015 at 12:28 PM.

02-26-2015, 12:26 PM	#23
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Stavri Evidence for such would be supported by the fact that all of the lenses released since the Ricoh purchase have been home-grown and exciting products. Originally posted by Stavri You seem to forget about the DA 18-270mm My understanding was this was a carryover project to replace the previous Tamron-made DA 18-250...not a Ricoh initiative, but I have been wrong before. Your point is well-taken. As for your prediction regarding the FF camera...I do believe that Monochrome beat you to the draw there. I suspect he is the guy who knows the guy... Steve

02-26-2015, 12:42 PM	#24
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	I"m not pretending to be the first to have ushered the news of the new FF. As far as i know during official interviews Tokina has stated that they're open to future collaborations, whether that's already happening behind the scenes I don't know. I for one am excited if they're partnership gets renewed, their joined venture has produced great stuff. Their At-X 24-70 is new enough to make it a potential excellent performer.

02-26-2015, 02:57 PM	#25
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by ChristianRock Maybe they hired engineers on a per-job basis, instead of a full-on collaboration. From internet sources, that is how the FA 31 Limited was created - a couple of engineers were contracted just for that lens and they were not Pentax employees (after Asahi Pentax decided that they wouldn't release Hirakawa Jun's 31mm f2.4 lens that was based on the old 30mm f2.8). This is not true. It was designed by Pentax but not Hirakawa. That is what Hirakawa said at the time of its release on his own mailing list....

02-26-2015, 03:23 PM	#26
ChristianRock Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: People's Republic of America Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,910	Originally posted by Pål Jensen This is not true. It was designed by Pentax but not Hirakawa. That is what Hirakawa said at the time of its release on his own mailing list.... You are right, the designers of the FA 31mm are Mr Takayuki Ito and Mr Masayuki Murata. I had done a flawed search previously. I've deleted my previous post.

02-26-2015, 04:15 PM	#27
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Stavri Pardon my nonchalance, I didn't literally mean the past 2-3 years. We're in a speculative thread so speculations are In order, untill we hear something concrete I'm all ears... Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration* between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.."* you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina.

02-26-2015, 04:32 PM	#28
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	Originally posted by Winder Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration* between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.."* you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina. I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know..

02-26-2015, 04:35 PM	#29
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Stavri I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know.. Good. When you verify that you can say that the collaboration is a given.

02-26-2015, 05:47 PM	#30
hjoseph7 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,047	I hope its an FA-limited metal housing, aperture ring and all ala 20-40 f2.8-4.