Speculations on the new D-Fa large diameter standard zoom

stevebrot · 02-26-2015, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Winder

Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.." you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina.

Originally posted by Stavri

I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know..

Originally posted by Winder

Good. When you verify that you can say that the collaboration is a given.

For those who think everyone is being a little picky, I would remind readers of a phenomenon that I generally label "Internet Truth". That being that a statement once made, if quoted often enough, will become the equivalent of common knowledge, even if it was pure fabrication. It may well, be that Stavri does know someone who has a friend who knows someone who works at Ricoh and that individual is in a position to be privy to an ongoing collaboration of Ricoh with Tokina.* It may also be a fabrication of some bored blogger in the Uzbekistan whose main interest is in funneling traffic for clicks.

Either way, stating such is pretty bold.

Steve

* Where is William Occam when we need him...

Stavri · 02-26-2015, 05:59 PM

......I don't...

**jatrax** · 02-26-2015, 07:22 PM

Here is the link to the original "Tokina engineer" comment: Tokina Confirms Pentax Full-frame Under Development - CP+ 2013 | PentaxForums.com As far as I can tell that was the only time that this has come up. I'm not sure a comment at CP+ in 2013 counts as much, especially since nothing has been heard since.

On the other hand it does not mean Pentax and Tokina have not been collaborating. However, 'collaborating' might mean licensing a glass formula, an optical formula, a bit of technology to grind a lens, or an entire lens. It might be a team of engineers with both Tokina and Pentax employees working together to develop a lens that both will then sell as their own.

Or the comment might have been from booth guy that wanted to impress his listeners.

yorik · 02-27-2015, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

Or the comment might have been from booth guy that wanted to impress his listeners.

Or the booth guy knows a guy who knows a guy...

**monochrome** · 02-27-2015, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

My understanding was this was a carryover project to replace the previous Tamron-made DA 18-250...not a Ricoh initiative, but I have been wrong before. Your point is well-taken.

As for your prediction regarding the FF camera...I do believe that Monochrome beat you to the draw there. I suspect he is the guy who knows the guy...

Steve

I know nothing. Especially about lenses. Said so many, many times. Sometimes I figure things out pretty close to correctly. Knowing which is a guess and which is a discernment is very hard.

As I have oft stated;

If I know and I say I know, I'll never know again. If I don't know and I say I know, sooner or later I won't know. If I shan't say I know it doesn't matter whether I do know or don't know.

All that being said, FF is coming this year.

And I want one so my hoods will work as God intended.

yorik · 02-27-2015, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

I know nothing. Especially about lenses. Said so many, many times. Sometimes I figure things out pretty close to correctly. Knowing which is a guess and which is a discernment is very hard.

As I have oft stated;

If I know and I say I know, I'll never know again. If I don't know and I say I know, sooner or later I won't know. If I shan't say I know it doesn't matter whether I do know or don't know.

All that being said, FF is coming this year.

And I want one so my hoods will work as God intended.

So, you're saying that there are known knowns and known unknowns, but the kit lens for the Pentax FF is an unknown unknown?

**monochrome** · 02-27-2015, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by yorik

So, you're saying that there are known knowns and known unknowns, but the kit lens for the Pentax FF is an unknown unknown?

I'm saying it depends who you ask.

Sandy Hancock · 02-27-2015, 03:16 PM

A riddle, inside a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma....

**RGlasel** · 02-27-2015, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

I'm saying it depends who you ask.

And what that whom was told may have been true on the day whomever asked the question, but who knows if it will be true today or tomorrow?

I understand the need for something like a 24-70 zoom for FF, but what about a D-FA version of this Pentax-A 35-105mm F3.5 Review - Review | PentaxForums.com Reviews?

**clackers** · 02-27-2015, 03:38 PM

Tokina or Cosina might get contracted to manufacture lenses if logistics mean Pentax in Vietnam are doing other things.

Kunzite · 02-27-2015, 03:50 PM

I'm not sure what you mean by that - doing what other things and why? - but manufacturing capacity should not be a problem.
If anything, Ricoh could either apologize for underestimating demand or plan for a higher production volume (and make it happen).

thibs · 03-01-2015, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Tokina or Cosina might get contracted to manufacture lenses if logistics mean Pentax in Vietnam are doing other things.

Even though it would be no Tokina lens but Pentax lens.
It has nothing to do with a rebranding from another manufacturer.
Note that I doubt that too.

biz-engineer · 09-24-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up? Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass? The new DFA lenses announced are not rebadged. Why on earth would they rebadge the 24-70 which will be the keystone of their FF system for years to come. It will arguably be more important long term than the body. That lens will make or break them.

Now that the DFA 24-70 is announced, you can re-evaluate your beliefs.

**jatrax** · 09-24-2015, 10:54 PM

I have and I am disappointed, sad and more than a little dismayed. I still feel that the 24-70 is the foundation of any FF system. For Ricoh to use a third party design, no matter how good, makes me question their ability and commitment to FF and to Pentax in general.
This has nothing to do with the lens, many seem to feel it will be good. It has to do with brand and company pride. If you outsource your flagship lens, what does that say about your ability to design and deliver lenses?

rawr · 09-24-2015, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by jatrax

If you outsource your flagship lens, what does that say about your ability to design and deliver lenses?

One shouldn't underestimate the degree of 'shadow' collaboration between Japanese lens and camera makers. Tamron makes lenses for Sony and Nikon, it is said. Some of those may be 'flagship' models. Cosina makes lenses for other houses too, including Zeiss. Sigma may do the same. Tokina and Pentax have been working together on flagship lenses like some DA* for years. All of the above use Hoya glass for their lenses. Etc.

Only when you backtrace the names of lens designers from lens patents might you be sure of who really designed a lens. But it still may not be any guide to who makes it.

02-27-2015, 01:41 PM	#35
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by stevebrot My understanding was this was a carryover project to replace the previous Tamron-made DA 18-250...not a Ricoh initiative, but I have been wrong before. Your point is well-taken. As for your prediction regarding the FF camera...I do believe that Monochrome beat you to the draw there. I suspect he is the guy who knows the guy... Steve I know nothing. Especially about lenses. Said so many, many times. Sometimes I figure things out pretty close to correctly. Knowing which is a guess and which is a discernment is very hard. As I have oft stated; If I know and I say I know, I'll never know again. If I don't know and I say I know, sooner or later I won't know. If I shan't say I know it doesn't matter whether I do know or don't know. All that being said, FF is coming this year. And I want one so my hoods will work as God intended. Last edited by monochrome; 02-27-2015 at 02:00 PM.

02-27-2015, 03:50 PM	#41
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I'm not sure what you mean by that - doing what other things and why? - but manufacturing capacity should not be a problem. If anything, Ricoh could either apologize for underestimating demand or plan for a higher production volume (and make it happen). Last edited by Kunzite; 02-27-2015 at 03:57 PM.

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02-26-2015, 05:56 PM	#31
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Winder Sorry, but when you say "This might be obvious conclusion to many but given the increased collaboration* between Tokina and Pentax these past few years.."* you not implying any speculation. You are saying collaboration is a "given". Collaboration is not a "given". The only "obvious conclusion" is that there has been no increased collaboration between Ricoh and Tokina. Originally posted by Stavri I'm gonna check with my friend whose friend knows a guy who works at Ricoh if in fact there's an ongoing collaboration between Tokina and Ricoh and let you know.. Originally posted by Winder Good. When you verify that you can say that the collaboration is a given. For those who think everyone is being a little picky, I would remind readers of a phenomenon that I generally label "Internet Truth". That being that a statement once made, if quoted often enough, will become the equivalent of common knowledge, even if it was pure fabrication. It may well, be that Stavri does know someone who has a friend who knows someone who works at Ricoh and that individual is in a position to be privy to an ongoing collaboration of Ricoh with Tokina.* It may also be a fabrication of some bored blogger in the Uzbekistan whose main interest is in funneling traffic for clicks. Either way, stating such is pretty bold. Steve * Where is William Occam when we need him...

02-26-2015, 05:59 PM	#32
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	......I don't...

02-26-2015, 07:22 PM	#33
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Here is the link to the original "Tokina engineer" comment: Tokina Confirms Pentax Full-frame Under Development - CP+ 2013 \| PentaxForums.com As far as I can tell that was the only time that this has come up. I'm not sure a comment at CP+ in 2013 counts as much, especially since nothing has been heard since. On the other hand it does not mean Pentax and Tokina have not been collaborating. However, 'collaborating' might mean licensing a glass formula, an optical formula, a bit of technology to grind a lens, or an entire lens. It might be a team of engineers with both Tokina and Pentax employees working together to develop a lens that both will then sell as their own. Or the comment might have been from booth guy that wanted to impress his listeners.

02-27-2015, 01:08 PM	#34
yorik Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Scotts Valley, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 991	Originally posted by jatrax Or the comment might have been from booth guy that wanted to impress his listeners. Or the booth guy knows a guy who knows a guy...

02-27-2015, 03:11 PM	#36
yorik Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Scotts Valley, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 991	Originally posted by monochrome I know nothing. Especially about lenses. Said so many, many times. Sometimes I figure things out pretty close to correctly. Knowing which is a guess and which is a discernment is very hard. As I have oft stated; If I know and I say I know, I'll never know again. If I don't know and I say I know, sooner or later I won't know. If I shan't say I know it doesn't matter whether I do know or don't know. All that being said, FF is coming this year. And I want one so my hoods will work as God intended. So, you're saying that there are known knowns and known unknowns, but the kit lens for the Pentax FF is an unknown unknown?

02-27-2015, 03:14 PM	#37
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by yorik So, you're saying that there are known knowns and known unknowns, but the kit lens for the Pentax FF is an unknown unknown? I'm saying it depends who you ask.

02-27-2015, 03:16 PM	#38
Sandy Hancock Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,275	A riddle, inside a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma....

02-27-2015, 03:37 PM	#39
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,229	Originally posted by monochrome I'm saying it depends who you ask. And what that whom was told may have been true on the day whomever asked the question, but who knows if it will be true today or tomorrow? I understand the need for something like a 24-70 zoom for FF, but what about a D-FA version of this Pentax-A 35-105mm F3.5 Review - Review \| PentaxForums.com Reviews?

02-27-2015, 03:38 PM	#40
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Tokina or Cosina might get contracted to manufacture lenses if logistics mean Pentax in Vietnam are doing other things.

03-01-2015, 10:35 PM	#42
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by clackers Tokina or Cosina might get contracted to manufacture lenses if logistics mean Pentax in Vietnam are doing other things. Even though it would be no Tokina lens but Pentax lens. It has nothing to do with a rebranding from another manufacturer. Note that I doubt that too.

09-24-2015, 09:15 PM	#43
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,247	Originally posted by jatrax Why does Pentax rebadging someone else's lenses keep coming up? Do we think they are not capable of developing their own glass? The new DFA lenses announced are not rebadged. Why on earth would they rebadge the 24-70 which will be the keystone of their FF system for years to come. It will arguably be more important long term than the body. That lens will make or break them. Now that the DFA 24-70 is announced, you can re-evaluate your beliefs.

09-24-2015, 10:54 PM	#44
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	I have and I am disappointed, sad and more than a little dismayed. I still feel that the 24-70 is the foundation of any FF system. For Ricoh to use a third party design, no matter how good, makes me question their ability and commitment to FF and to Pentax in general. This has nothing to do with the lens, many seem to feel it will be good. It has to do with brand and company pride. If you outsource your flagship lens, what does that say about your ability to design and deliver lenses?

09-24-2015, 11:57 PM	#45
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by jatrax If you outsource your flagship lens, what does that say about your ability to design and deliver lenses? One shouldn't underestimate the degree of 'shadow' collaboration between Japanese lens and camera makers. Tamron makes lenses for Sony and Nikon, it is said. Some of those may be 'flagship' models. Cosina makes lenses for other houses too, including Zeiss. Sigma may do the same. Tokina and Pentax have been working together on flagship lenses like some DA* for years. All of the above use Hoya glass for their lenses. Etc. Only when you backtrace the names of lens designers from lens patents might you be sure of who really designed a lens. But it still may not be any guide to who makes it.