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03-14-2015, 10:20 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I suppose also selling that K5-II used and replace it with a K3 would allow for more cropping, a bit like you see here while keeping the current gear. The price and effect would be similar to what of the TC I guess if you take into account the money you would get from selling the K5-II.
Thanks for your pictures. It seem taht *50-135 can resolve full 24MP of K3 sensor.

This is what I'm currently thinking about. Using my current (and beloved) *50-135 and get "telephoto option" by increased resolution of 24MP without AA vs 16MP with AA. Theoretically, I can get more then 50% more resolution - but from DXo mark the improvement is about 35% - about the same as using TC1.4 (If TC will be absolutlly ideal, and it is not).

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
First learn to use you DA50-135, really ! Spend some day at the zoo with it !
This is my usual Zoo lens - but sometimes a need more reach. So lastly, I get to ZOO 50-200 instead of it - It was good experience, becouse I learned, that 200mm will be enough to me (If I can crop as I can with my 50-135).

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
You fill like 60-250 is very similar to 50-135 but I don't how this would be any worse than a DA*200 or DA*300. That's pure psychology as obviously the 60-250 can do more than theses 2 primes at the expense of a bit lower quality (DA*300) or a bit less light gathering (DA*200). But from practical purpose, this 60-250 DO MORE than the DA*200 and DA*300. It is not much more heavy/bigger than DA*300 and there often very interresting used price for it on the market.
Im not sure about this. Its heavier than my current most heavy setup - and it is the most expensive solution. New it is about $1300. And used here, in Europe? On e-bay i cannot find anything used from EU. I haven't seen any of them on our local shop (biggest in our country) with used lenses for maybe 5 years (and I'm not brave enough to buy something that expensive without any buyers protection). So, as I stated before, i cannot counting with used prices. Only with new prices.

Mayby I can just wait for upcoming K-3 succesor and buy it or wait for discounted K-3. The only problem is, that here discontinued models arent discounted much. For example, k-5IIs is for $930. K-3 with current cashback is only $920 - so I'm affraid, tah it is the best price that we can get here. (Launch price was about $1750 here - body only).

So my decisions are now:

1) buy a k-3 and get close with croping of 24MP no AA sensor
2) buy DA*300 and get great telephoto.
3) buy DA*200 and get great and small telephoto.
4) buy da*60-250 and get hreat versatille telephoto zoom

But. I assume, that DA*200 arent quite highly regarded as others. Why?

---------- Post added 03-14-15 at 06:49 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
I find the size and weight of the 60-250 to be manageable but heavy. I like carrying the 50-135 more. With the TC the 50-135 is not as long as the 200's but close. Also as indicated cropping can help
Thanks for opinion. Can you post some sample of 50-135 wtih TC on long end?

03-14-2015, 10:53 AM   #17
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I have had a 55-300 bought new since June 2008. It's great throughout the focal length lens and that includes at 300 mm. I also have a Sigma 150-500 which is also very sharp throughout and excellent at 500mm.

I did think of buying a DA 300, but I do like a zoom for versatility. Budget can be an issue, but if were considering a DA 300 at around $ 1500 +/- (CAD)...I think I would wait, see what the reviews were on the new Pentax 150-450 and perhaps save up for that. A 150mm more at the top end and then of course there's that zoom factor vs a prime lens thing again.

When budget is an issue...I recommend the 55-300. This is an excellent lens IMHO, with very good reviews.
03-14-2015, 11:11 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
So my decisions are now:

1) buy a k-3 and get close with croping of 24MP no AA sensor
2) buy DA*300 and get great telephoto.
3) buy DA*200 and get great and small telephoto.
4) buy da*60-250 and get hreat versatille telephoto zoom.
3) doesn't make much sense. The image quality will be better than that of your 50-200 at 200 mm, but it doesn't solve your main problem, which is reach.
03-14-2015, 11:33 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
3) doesn't make much sense. The image quality will be better than that of your 50-200 at 200 mm, but it doesn't solve your main problem, which is reach.
No it would solve it. My problem is not a pure reach. If I get same image quality from 200mm as from my *50-135 at 135 - It will be enough for me. From my *50-135 shots I can do heavy crops. In right circumstances, I get images that wieved on 100% are perfectly sharp (so I can print A4 format (on 300dpi) with 8mp image - that is what I can get from 270mm lens without croping). With my 50-200 I cant crop much.

If I can get same cropping potencial from Da*200 lens as from my DA*50-135 I will be happy with it. But I affraid, that PF issues and bokeh fringing is so bad to do that.

03-14-2015, 11:57 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
Thanks for your pictures. It seem taht *50-135 can resolve full 24MP of K3 sensor.

This is what I'm currently thinking about. Using my current (and beloved) *50-135 and get "telephoto option" by increased resolution of 24MP without AA vs 16MP with AA. Theoretically, I can get more then 50% more resolution - but from DXo mark the improvement is about 35% - about the same as using TC1.4 (If TC will be absolutlly ideal, and it is not).
Beware the number of pixel is 50% more and DxO also give number in MP. Thoses units are comparables. And DxO shows only 35% more for lenses because well not all lenses are perfect, they need to be stopped down and only the center give the best. DxO give one number that also account for less than optimal apperture and border performance.

On the other end, there the low pass filter removal that also affect a lot the sharpness. If you had a K5-IIs it wouldn't be that important to upgrade really. A big share of the gain comes from the filter removal. Look K5-IIs vs K3 on DxO and K5-II vs K5-IIs.

But the TC this a focal length ratio. This is distance scale, not surface scale. Converted into surface this is +100% (1.4 is indeed the approximation of the square root of 2, that why you see it everywhere in photography). The TC will bring more reach than changing sensor. But because it add other optical issues, I'am not sure this is overall much better than migrating to K3.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
This is my usual Zoo lens - but sometimes a need more reach. So lastly, I get to ZOO 50-200 instead of it - It was good experience, becouse I learned, that 200mm will be enough to me (If I can crop as I can with my 50-135).
In the view finder you see more reach, something the TC would fix. (189mm vs 200mm is almost the same). In term of available detail, teh 50-135 can resolve much more details than your 50-200 (enough to see the crops !). Even with your K5-II, you can more reach with the 50-135 in practice than with the 50-200. That's the whole point.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
Im not sure about this. Its heavier than my current most heavy setup - and it is the most expensive solution. New it is about $1300. And used here, in Europe? On e-bay i cannot find anything used from EU. I haven't seen any of them on our local shop (biggest in our country) with used lenses for maybe 5 years (and I'm not brave enough to buy something that expensive without any buyers protection). So, as I stated before, i cannot counting with used prices. Only with new prices.
I sold my 50-135 used less than 1 month ago for 500€. I saw several 60-250 for 600-800 here on the forum. If you want great price, you need time and to look for it. Look for you what is more expensive... Spend some time to wait for a good offer and look at the market place... or spend 500€ more on a new product.

As for size/weight the 50-135 is comparable to DA*200 and the 60-250 is comparable to DA*300. You will not gain in weight/size or even price really by going for DA*300. You would gain in quality but the focal length would mean it is good for 300-500mm range and it particulary bad for sub 200mm range. You would need to have both the 50-135 for many shoots at the zoo and also the DA*300 for some other shoots.... While the 60-250 could be your only lense and do everything. The 50-135 + TC would approximate that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
Mayby I can just wait for upcoming K-3 succesor and buy it or wait for discounted K-3. The only problem is, that here discontinued models arent discounted much. For example, k-5IIs is for $930. K-3 with current cashback is only $920 - so I'm affraid, tah it is the best price that we can get here. (Launch price was about $1750 here - body only).
It is a mater of time. The K5 finished his life at 500€ new and now you could buy one used for 350€. The K30 that has same feature as K5 finished his life as 250€ in sales. or 400€ bundled with 18-135 couting I guess you could resell the 18-135 for at least 200€.

K-S1 and K-S2 both are 20MP without low pass filter. K-S1 is already available for 480€ here. Like K-S2 would sell the same in 1 year and K3 would be 600€.

The way you seems to use your gear you need more the TC or a 60-250 to see the reach directly in the view finder than added resolution because you don't appear to crop much in practice. Otherwise you would never have used the 50-200.


QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
So my decisions are now:

1) buy a k-3 and get close with croping of 24MP no AA sensor
2) buy DA*300 and get great telephoto.
3) buy DA*200 and get great and small telephoto.
4) buy da*60-250 and get hreat versatille telephoto zoom
Remember that using the prime would mean very specialized work. DA*200 is good for 200-300mm range really and DA*300 is good for 300-450mm range.

if today you use mostly your 50-135 it mean you also need this range. While DA*200 is no bigger than DA50-135 and DA*300 is equivalent to DA60-250, if you go the prime route, you would need at least 2 (like adding a DFA100 macro) or keep the 50-135 in the bag and changes lenses depending of the subject.

In term of weight/bag size that would be the worst.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
But. I assume, that DA*200 arent quite highly regarded as others. Why?
It not as good as the DA*300 as a prime and except for the f/2.8 that is prone to chromatical aberations, many consider the zooms to be as good or better (70-200, 60-250).

Last edited by Nicolas06; 03-14-2015 at 12:14 PM.
03-14-2015, 12:06 PM   #21
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A few other 50-135 picture cropped to get more reach. This is not like this is an issue, even with a K5... You could print theses think at least on 10x15" with great quality and 20x30" would be quite acceptable. Click on the picture for full version.

DA50-135 f/5.6, 135mm, framed/cropped to 270mm with a K5:



DA50-135 f/5.6, 135mm, framed/cropped to 200mm with a K5



DA50-135, f/8, 135mm, framed/cropped to 217mm with a K5

03-14-2015, 01:37 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
It is a mater of time. The K5 finished his life at 500€ new and now you could buy one used for 350€. The K30 that has same feature as K5 finished his life as 250€ in sales. or 400€ bundled with 18-135 couting I guess you could resell the 18-135 for at least 200€.
Im afraid, that this is not true here. Current price of K-3 is the lowest in our country ever and k-5 (opriginal) never fall beyond 650€, k-5II 670€ and k-5IIs beyond 760€. And used k-5IIs is here for 630€. Yes, we have quite expensive Pentax stuff here. If buy It form US, I will not get warranty and to indicatet price I must pay about 25% more for duties and tax and of course a shipping. From other EU countries - only I need add only shipping, but with warranty will be problem here, becouse our official Pentax-ricoh service dosent accept international warranty - only gods bought from our official distributor.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Spend some time to wait for a good offer and look at the market place
There is rarelly something from EU - with price (incl. shipping) is resonable lower to justiffy lack of warranty. (I now, two months ago there be a 60-25 for about 700€...)


But this is another story I can do the math. (And I have several used stuff, if it comes to be good deal, but I affraid to pay that much without any warranty or be able to test it).

The question is what way to go.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
On the other end, there the low pass filter removal that also affect a lot the sharpness. If you had a K5-IIs it wouldn't be that important to upgrade really. A big share of the gain comes from the filter removal. Look K5-IIs vs K3 on DxO and K5-II vs K5-IIs.
Yes - this is what I'm thinking about (and already read it). When I have k-5II - mybe i will be satisfied with k-5IIs - but it is more expensive than k-3 right now

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The way you seems to use your gear you need more the TC or a 60-250 to see the reach directly in the view finder than added resolution because you don't appear to crop much in practice. Otherwise you would never have used the 50-200.
I think this is a misunderstanding. I do lot of crops in fact. I use the 50-200 becouse I have 50-200 (and had it before 50-135). I take it If I want something lightweight. And lastly, I want to test if this it will be better on 200 than 50-135 on crop. I found that not, but I like more reaxch that IU can get - so I started this thred

But I very much appreciate your help, showing me the direction in which I have yet does not proceed.

Mayby I can stay with croping my 50-135 on my k-5II and stay tuned for upcoming k-3 succesor...
03-14-2015, 04:19 PM   #23
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I finally sold personnally my 50-135, it started when I got my FA77 that so much smaller while keeping better picture quality.

Now I just brought an F135 f/2.8 should be here soon. This guy will have purple fringing too you know, in particular at f/2.8. A bit sharper yet than the 50-135.

The idea anyway is that F135 is no really bigger than that 50-200 of yours, but with K3 and all the things, that's at least as good as the 50-135. I will eventually add a TC to push even futher the limit: a good prime + TC + 24MP K3 with cropping.

I'll report what I get out of this, of course!

But all of this is because I'am even more sensitive than you to weight/size. 50-135 is far too big, obtrusive, heavy and I think it really push the limit. And for 99% of my shooting I don't really need more than cropped 135mm.

I know from experience it is not always enough at the zoo. I don't care much myself and I know the day I decide for safari, I would seriously think of ranting or buying a 60-250 + TC. In the meantime, I don't need to rush.

I have just the feeling that well that despite the fact that for me you can crop as much the DA*200 than you can crop the DA*50-135, the difference in focal length is not enough to really change things. You would get a bit more definition but that's not really game changer. Just push the limits a bit compared to what you have now.

With TC and K3 you would go bit futher, but things add up that 2000 for something that would never match what the 150-450 can do but that would be the price of it. The gain would be only the weight really.

I think if you are not happy with the 50-135 even through you indeed crop... It is because you need something that is really longer. At least 250mm, better 300mm. Really think of it when you finally decide! And think if you keep it a prime, meaning only can frame the focal or something even longer or if you need a zoom.

03-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But all of this is because I'am even more sensitive than you to weight/size. 50-135 is far too big, obtrusive, heavy and I think it really push the limit.
I buy sling strap becouse this lens. With sling strap it is quite good weight. But I thing, its the limit - if it will be significantly heavier, I don't know if I will carry with me all the time.

BTW: I'm not some "super ZOO photographer". Just this is the place, where I missed the long tele.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I think if you are not happy with the 50-135 even through you indeed crop
Absolutly not! This and my DFA100WR Macro are my favorit lenses.

But you are right - I must be happy with cropping ability of my gear or get something significantly better.

So, I will wait - or mayby buy a k-3 (just in case of good price)
03-14-2015, 07:24 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jannis Quote
Thanks for opinion. Can you post some sample of 50-135 wtih TC on long end?
I'll have to take some new ones - maybe tomorrow - not promising art!
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