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04-04-2015, 07:44 AM   #16
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And don't overlook the sheer thrill of teasing out an exemplary image from a lens and/or body the many if not most have written off as unworthy of effort. The quality of the photographic experience is way more than the technical details of the equipment and the value of the effort is not measured by the cost of the lenses. Photography is an art form and that means that the artist (photographer) needs to understand the physics of light and the characteristics of the equipment but should not be constrained by what others think is logical, reasonable, or "right." Creativity is taking what you have and making something extraordinary in ways that others may not have considered.


In a nutshell, if you have the resources and patience to only buy the best and never consider the lower tiers that's your prerogative but for me that would mean forgoing hours of pleasurable and quality time learning my art and craft. To me that time that would otherwise be unoccupied, has a real and quantifiable value. If I wait 6 months, a year, or 2 years, to buy a lens that costs as much as twice the cost of the body I will have lost that time rather that filling it with pleasure, experience and learning. So, it ain't all about dollars and cents but it is about common sense.

04-04-2015, 08:18 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by MPrince Quote
But is it 6.67 times better?

Perhaps, but perhaps not. Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. Does the value of a thousand dollar lens justify it's price relative to $150 lens? For some, that answer may well be yes, for others no.

Years ago the first non-kit lens I bought was the DA40 Limited. Several months ago I bought the "Plastic Fantastic" DA35. Since buying that lens, I'm more inclined to use it than the 40 because in my opinion the optical quality is close to the same, but the 35, being physically larger, is easier for me to mount to and remove from the camera. So, the value of the 35 is, to me, higher than the value of the 40.

But that's my mileage, others' mileage may vary.
Sometime it is even 6.5 time heavier

After, this depend a lot on use and also availability of affordable lenses. There quite a few affordable zooms by sigma and tamrons available but there not so many really cheap prime outside of DA35, DA50 avalable new with AF... A portrait lense in the 70-90mm range will often be a DA70 this is not that cheap... not like there full range of choice.

And if you like the large apperture rendering, there really not much affordable available. We don't have the cheap f/1.8 85mm some other brand have...
04-04-2015, 09:46 AM   #18
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I learned a few things in the past 40 years:
1) Good glass (or perhaps plastic in one or two cases) helps.
2) Good glass does not always cost a lot of $. Thanks to Pentax user reviews and sites like Welcome to Photozone!, it is possible to know how a lens should perform before you purchase it.
3) Like automobiles, glass depreciates the day you buy it. Used lenses can save lots of $, particularly for the older manual lenses. If you are in no rush, look for “steals” while taking your time to build a lens collection.
4) Lots of bad stuff is sold on eBay, along with lots of good stuff. You can get steals on used glass there, but be prepare to test any used lens promptly. I’ve sent back two lenses in the past few years because something was amiss. I don’t believe the sellers when they claim they claim innocence. They knew. Anyhow, eBay is also useful for making $. Several times I “stole” a lens I didn’t need or want, only to flip it for a small profit. I recently bought a used Sigma 70mm EX DG Macro with the accumulated profits, getting ready for the FF. Like most people, I've been happy ordering from B&H, Adorama, and KEH.
5) Sometimes it pays to shell out the $ for what you want. The Pentax D* 60-250mm isn’t cheap, but some of my best work comes from using it.
6) Remember, most of the iconic photos ever published were taken on equipment worse than yours.
7) If you purchase used glass at reasonable prices, there is nothing wrong with "overlap." Why? You can always sell something later and breakeven.
8) Kit zooms usually suck. The center sharpness may be OK stopping down a bit, but the build quality is poor and the lens may not last. The first upgrade for most people should be a decent 17-50mm (17-70mm, or whatever) basic zoom lens. If you can live w/o weatherproofing, Tamron and Sigma have good offerings for upgraded zooms.

Last edited by quant2325; 04-04-2015 at 09:58 AM.
04-04-2015, 11:35 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by quant2325 Quote
I learned a few things in the past 40 years:
1) Good glass (or perhaps plastic in one or two cases) helps.
2) Good glass does not always cost a lot of $. Thanks to Pentax user reviews and sites like Welcome to Photozone!, it is possible to know how a lens should perform before you purchase it.
3) Like automobiles, glass depreciates the day you buy it. Used lenses can save lots of $, particularly for the older manual lenses. If you are in no rush, look for “steals” while taking your time to build a lens collection.
4) Lots of bad stuff is sold on eBay, along with lots of good stuff. You can get steals on used glass there, but be prepare to test any used lens promptly. I’ve sent back two lenses in the past few years because something was amiss. I don’t believe the sellers when they claim they claim innocence. They knew. Anyhow, eBay is also useful for making $. Several times I “stole” a lens I didn’t need or want, only to flip it for a small profit. I recently bought a used Sigma 70mm EX DG Macro with the accumulated profits, getting ready for the FF. Like most people, I've been happy ordering from B&H, Adorama, and KEH.
5) Sometimes it pays to shell out the $ for what you want. The Pentax D* 60-250mm isn’t cheap, but some of my best work comes from using it.
6) Remember, most of the iconic photos ever published were taken on equipment worse than yours.
7) If you purchase used glass at reasonable prices, there is nothing wrong with "overlap." Why? You can always sell something later and breakeven.
8) Kit zooms usually suck. The center sharpness may be OK stopping down a bit, but the build quality is poor and the lens may not last. The first upgrade for most people should be a decent 17-50mm (17-70mm, or whatever) basic zoom lens. If you can live w/o weatherproofing, Tamron and Sigma have good offerings for upgraded zooms.
A few note from my experience and my father experience:

- I fully agree that lenses loose value overtime, just slower than camera bodies, but still. Just easy to see how much most manual lenses sell for... Counting inflation the typicall 50mm should sell for 1000$, not 50! Clearly my father old manual lenses and my grand parents manual lenses didn't hold their price... Worse because we are now digital, some optical issue they have are more visible than before (purple frigging...).

- I never used the kit lenses and started with DA17-70. Nevertheless, my father first digital DSLR had been istDL and kit lense. he used it for years without issue... And the kit lense price was maybe 50€, bundled with the body. The kit lense never failed. Counting the equivalent tamron/sigma f/2.8 zoom is far bigger/heavier and far more expensive too, this was not a bad choice for him. He could have replaced the kit lenses 20 time compared to Pentax pro gear and 6 time compared to tamron/sigma low cost offering. He did it again this time with a K30+ 18-135. The build quality of this one is truely great, superior to the 17-70 pentax and equivalent tamron/sigma. It has silent focussing and WR... So yes it is soft past 70mm, but it can get the shoot. So for my father the kit lenses are good... He just brought a used FA50 f/1.7 to compliment for low light performance.

- As for unexpensive lenses, it depend a lot what are your requirements. I'am not that interrested in manual lenses as I simply fail to focus them properly and don't take pleasure out of them. I don't care of WR but many do. I don't care too much of AF speed, but many do, again... I just wanted a sharp wide angle lense on APSC, and there none except the huge samyangs and maybe the 8-16 sigma... I also wanted a fast tele lense, sub f/2, longer than 50mm that is too short... This is not cheap in Pentax land.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 04-04-2015 at 11:49 AM.
04-04-2015, 12:08 PM   #20
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One of the things that I don't like about the modern digital cams is that when you buy a kit usually the first lens is a zoom and not a prime. The old film cams they hardly ever came with zooms, that was the next lens you bought, and I think that was a good thing. I think all DSLR's should still come with a nifty 50 or the digital equivalent thereof. I get that the zoom gives people more range but I think a basic prime should be an option. One of the reasons I love the Olympus Pen M43 cameras is that you can get certain models with the 2.8 17mm lens instead of the 14-42 zoom sometimes. It costs more but I think it's worth it. Having a prime come with? I really, really was happy to see that. I have 3 primes and one zoom for my M43 kit. I use the primes far more often I think. The only reason I have a zoom is so I can get a bird shot if I need to. If I could afford it I'd probably just get the longest prime they make and be done with it but that's a bit pricey an option for me unfortunately...
04-04-2015, 12:43 PM   #21
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For the majority... not having a zoom on it is a deal breaker. I remember being stopped by a person who wanted to know about my A-400. After a brief explanation she said " It's that big and it doesn't even zoom?" with a look of incredulity on her face. Do you really want to lose all those people who actually never buy a second lens, just because you're the guy selling the DSLR with a prime? Pentax has had camera plus prime deals, so it's not like they aren't trying to keep the door open, but consumers have pretty much shut it.
04-04-2015, 08:36 PM   #22
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Zooms can be a good training ground if you deliberately select particular focal lengths that coincide with the available primes. This can help deter LBA if you can rationally determine your preferred FL's for your particular choice of subject matter.
04-05-2015, 12:02 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
One of the things that I don't like about the modern digital cams is that when you buy a kit usually the first lens is a zoom and not a prime. The old film cams they hardly ever came with zooms, that was the next lens you bought, and I think that was a good thing. I think all DSLR's should still come with a nifty 50 or the digital equivalent thereof. I get that the zoom gives people more range but I think a basic prime should be an option. One of the reasons I love the Olympus Pen M43 cameras is that you can get certain models with the 2.8 17mm lens instead of the 14-42 zoom sometimes. It costs more but I think it's worth it. Having a prime come with? I really, really was happy to see that. I have 3 primes and one zoom for my M43 kit. I use the primes far more often I think. The only reason I have a zoom is so I can get a bird shot if I need to. If I could afford it I'd probably just get the longest prime they make and be done with it but that's a bit pricey an option for me unfortunately...
There was some deals with K3 and 50mm f/1.8!

04-05-2015, 10:41 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
lenses loose value overtime
Over a long time, yes, in the second hand market due to evolution of technology, prices drop.
However, I've seem that the prices of DA* lenses and DA limited lenses increased over the last few years. Basically, I could resell my primes for more than I paid them new.
It was the reverse trend for the DA17-70, DA18-250, I think we can find them used at 50% or less of their original price.

In this thread , I think the title "Product lines" is important. I was considering product line as M, A, F, FA, FA*, FA Limited, DA L, DA, DA*, DA Limited... (not sure if the DA 18-135 and DA 16-85 still belong to the DA line or something like Ricohized DA)
It seems that the next product line will be D FA, so I'd assume that there will also be a DFA* ? Meaning the DFA line will be the digital full frame baseline. Or perhaps there will be not more DFA* and DFA will already be the top of the line K mount lenses for full frame.

Anyway, next time, I'll buy only good glass, which means to wait until the lenses are reviewed to know where they belong.
04-05-2015, 07:14 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Over a long time, yes, in the second hand market due to evolution of technology, prices drop.
However, I've seem that the prices of DA* lenses and DA limited lenses increased over the last few years. Basically, I could resell my primes for more than I paid them new.
It was the reverse trend for the DA17-70, DA18-250, I think we can find them used at 50% or less of their original price.

In this thread , I think the title "Product lines" is important. I was considering product line as M, A, F, FA, FA*, FA Limited, DA L, DA, DA*, DA Limited... (not sure if the DA 18-135 and DA 16-85 still belong to the DA line or something like Ricohized DA)
It seems that the next product line will be D FA, so I'd assume that there will also be a DFA* ? Meaning the DFA line will be the digital full frame baseline. Or perhaps there will be not more DFA* and DFA will already be the top of the line K mount lenses for full frame.

Anyway, next time, I'll buy only good glass, which means to wait until the lenses are reviewed to know where they belong.
Even DA* like 50-135 or 60-250 or 16-50 doesn't resell that well compared to the price asked new. To me, this is because they are not perfect enough (slow crappy SDM motor...) and start to show their age.

I have seen in France the price of DAltds new go down, in particular DA15 that is now 30% cheaper than before. There often good low prices from amazon if you accept to get a silver version of the lenses too. This is for HD... SMC would resell used for less than that of course.

The lenses that seems to hold their price are more FAltd.

As most of the ltd are screw drive, no WR and DA* are SDM, all will be very sensitive in resell value if a new model comes.

Theses day already due to FF lenses coming and people preparing for FF camera, all APSC lenses get lower prices on the used market: more sellers than buyers.
04-08-2015, 05:36 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by quant2325 Quote
.
6) Remember, most of the iconic photos ever published were taken on equipment worse than yours.
This should be hammered into the forehead of everybody who's just bought (or has made a firm decision on) their first entry-level crop DSLR with a decent kit lens*. Why? Because eventually they will, either online or in person, run into some snob with a high-end crop or FF and very expensive gear who gets a kick out of making people feel small for owning "only" a basic APS-C body with a kit lens or uses it as an excuse to try to upsell them "because everyone knows you can't take good pictures with that cr*p".

I followed the OP's path - 18-250 for one-lens flexibility, 40mm pancake for ease of handling and aperture, then Macro, and now I think I will probably never buy another zoom lens again.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly:
One of the things that I don't like about the modern digital cams is that when you buy a kit usually the first lens is a zoom and not a prime. The old film cams they hardly ever came with zooms, that was the next lens you bought, and I think that was a good thing. I think all DSLR's should still come with a nifty 50 or the digital equivalent thereof. I get that the zoom gives people more range but I think a basic prime should be an option.
I tend to agree. 35mm f/2.4 or 50mm f/1.8 would be my first choices to offer here. As others have said, the consumer almost always WANTS the zoom, but there's something old-school about the prime which may appeal to others, and being able to select it as an either/or choice without adversely affecting the price would be a good thing. Everything old is new again, and if you pitch the basic fast prime as some sort of "Retro" deal and sell the prime on its basic technical strengths (simple, reliable, great in low light, etc), I reckon there'd be people who'd go down that road.

* "decent kit lens" = e.g. OEM or current-production Sigma/Tamron. Some kit lenses are rubbish, true, but surely not all of them.

Last edited by pathdoc; 04-08-2015 at 05:42 AM.
04-08-2015, 01:02 PM   #27
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Dont forget to add the premium of WR variants , and limited range thereof , into the mix 😂
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