DA 16-85 & DA 17-70: Quick and Dirty Comparison

northcoastgreg · 06-12-2015, 06:25 PM - **5 Likes**

Just received a DA 16-85, which will be replacing my DA 17-70. I did a few quick snapshots of the DA 16-85, just to make sure it was not suffering from obvious issues. Just for fun, I took similar shots with the DA 17-70, to get sort of a tentative indication of how they compare. I would not, however, make any definitive judgments from these crops as to the relative merits of these two lenses. To really get to a know the strengths and weaknesses of a lens, one has to use it under variety of different lighting conditions, photographing a variety of objects of different colors and textures. All images shot at f8. Shot in Raw, using embedded profile in Lightroom.

To begin with, at the wide end of lens (center crop), with the DA 17-70 on the left, the DA 16-85 on the right:

Very little difference here, beyond slight contrast advantage for the DA 16-85.

Two more crops, one bottom middle, the next far edge crop:

The DA 16-85 does look a bit sharper here, but if you were looking at 20 inch prints at normal viewing distance, I doubt you'd see a difference.

Now for crops at ~24mm, starting with center crop:

The DA 16-85 does look a little sharper here, but I suspect what we're really seeing is more contrast.

Edge crop:

Very slight and utterly insignificant advantage for the DA 16-85. Both lenses are very good at this focal length.

At ~35mm:

A little more difference here, all in favor of the DA 16-85, but still hardly rising to the level of significance.

At ~50mm:

The DA 16-85 pulls ahead a bit more, but pixel peeping exaggerates by how much.

At ~70mm:

The achilles heel of the 17-70 was always at the long end, so it's no surprise that the 16-85 out performs it here.

The DA 17-70 is, optically, a very nice lens. The DA 16-85 would seem to be slightly better: better contrast throughout its range, ever so slightly sharper at the wide end, definitely sharper at the long end.

Kozlok · 06-12-2015, 06:49 PM

Most lenses are at least decent at f8...Try again wide open maybe?

IchabodCrane · 06-12-2015, 07:03 PM

Especially as judged by the long end, I'd say I'm fortunate to perhaps have a better copy of the DA 17-70.

**luftfluss** · 06-12-2015, 07:30 PM

Thanks for posting this, its useful information for me.

As I'd mostly likely use a lens like these for landscapes, comparisons at f/8 are perfect for me.

Last edited by luftfluss; 06-12-2015 at 09:08 PM.

normhead · 06-12-2015, 07:53 PM

Interesting... no difference, no difference, no difference, big difference.

sbc · 06-12-2015, 11:00 PM

Thank you for this post. I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of.

normhead · 06-13-2015, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by sbc

Thank you for this post. I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of.

ƒ8 is usually the best compromise between depth of field and sharpness, but on most lenses excluding many really expensive lenses, ƒ5.6 is the sharpest.

northcoastgreg · 06-13-2015, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Kozlok

Most lenses are at least decent at f8...Try again wide open maybe?

Sorry, I'm not sure I'll ever get around that, or that I even care. I don't find f3.5 to f5 all that compelling as aperture to shoot at in a standard zoom range. Not enough depth of field of landscapes, but too much to isolate objects against a background. Also, these two lenses (or at least my two copies) don't perform identically at f8 at all focal lengths. The DA 16-85 is definitely sharper, even at f8. Plus there are issues like flare control, contrast, color rendition, and overall rendering to consider.

Originally posted by sbc

I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of.

If you set up program mode to give you the sharpest aperture for the lens, this is what it will tell you: from 16mm to ~23mm, f5 is sharpest aperture; from ~24mm to ~35mm, f5.6 is the sharpest aperture; from ~36mm to ~43mm, f6.3mm is the sharpest aperture; from ~44mm to ~75mm, f7.1 is the sharpest aperture; and from ~76mm
to 85mm, f8 is the sharpest aperture.

ogl · 06-13-2015, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by northcoastgreg

Just received a DA 16-85, which will be replacing my DA 17-70. .

It seems to me 17-70 just has focus problems from 50 till 70 mm and nothing else
Why do I think so?

17-70 has the same resolution at 17mm, 24 mm and at 40 mm and just slightly worse at 70 mm at f8.
http://www.photozone.de/pentax/408-pentax_1770_4?start=1
That's why I think that 17-70 should show identical IQ at all focal length at f8.

Do you use tripod, manual focus? Or LV? If not, the comparison is not correct

jonby · 06-13-2015, 11:17 AM

Thanks for these tests. Every little helps. Testing at f8 is the most useful for me as that is where I would most commonly use a lens like this. As you state, no absolute conclusions can be drawn from these alone, but the 16-85 does look good here, improving on edge sharpness at the wide end and central sharpness at the long end (was your 70mm test a central section or edge?). One thing which can throw these tests off is focusing distance. Did you use magnified live view for this or AF?

Also, how is the centering on the 16-85? Is it pretty even on all sides? There seems to be quite a lot of variability between different edges in Pentax zooms I have used.

normhead · 06-13-2015, 11:20 AM

If you look at Klaus measurements over at photozone for the 16-85 from 16mm to 50mm ƒ5.6 always has the highest overall value in the centre at ƒ5.6. By 85mm it's ƒ8. And that's unusual for sure.

Pentax HD DA 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6 ED DC WR - Review / Test Report - Analysis

The DA 70 has it's highest value at ƒ4, but just barely by ƒ8 it's lost 100 lw/ph
Pentax SMC DA 70mm f/2.4 Limited - Review / Lab Test - Analysis

APS-c and FF lenses are diffraction limited by ƒ8, so who knows what's going on with the 16-85. It might be the only lens I've ever seen that gets sharper after it's diffraction limit has been reached. A quick look at the 17-70 shows the same characteristic.

Anyone have a clue what's going on there?

It would seem just on casual analysis that zooms may be sharper at ƒ8. But Pentax's sharpest glass, all seem to peak at ƒ4 and drop off very slowly True of the DA 70, 31 ltd., 77ltd, but most APS_c lenses at most focal lengths peak at the centre at ƒ5.6

ogl · 06-13-2015, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by normhead

If you look at Klaus measurements over at photozone for the 16-85 from 16mm to 50mm ƒ5.6 always has the highest overall value in the centre at ƒ5.6. By 85mm it's ƒ8. And that's unusual for sure.
A quick look at the 17-70 shows the same characteristic.

17-70 has better f5.6 at 17-24 than f8, but at 40 mm - no any difference between f5.6 and f8, and at 70 mm - f8 is better than f5.6

mee · 06-13-2015, 11:31 AM - **1 Like**

I think your 17-70 has focus issues on the long end.. it looks way off and not just soft but truly misfocused.

simsburyphoto · 06-13-2015, 12:23 PM

Most test seem to show that 16-85 only marginally better than the 17-70 optically. I will stay with my 17-70 until the autofocus dies (if ever). I have the 18-135 for WR and the other lens that go wider.

GlennG · 06-13-2015, 12:23 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by northcoastgreg

Just for fun, I took similar shots with the DA 17-70, to get sort of a tentative indication of how they compare.

Thanks for the comparisons, Greg. A relevant test for me. The results appear about in line with other reviews, I would say. I will have to look again, but I'm thinking that the performance at 70 mm on my 17-70 is notably better than shown here. The 16-85 appears to be a dandy lens, but my 17-70 is absolutely no slouch either, and I'm very happy with it.

06-12-2015, 06:25 PM - 5 Likes	#1
northcoastgreg Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Northern Michigan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,173	DA 16-85 & DA 17-70: Quick and Dirty Comparison Just received a DA 16-85, which will be replacing my DA 17-70. I did a few quick snapshots of the DA 16-85, just to make sure it was not suffering from obvious issues. Just for fun, I took similar shots with the DA 17-70, to get sort of a tentative indication of how they compare. I would not, however, make any definitive judgments from these crops as to the relative merits of these two lenses. To really get to a know the strengths and weaknesses of a lens, one has to use it under variety of different lighting conditions, photographing a variety of objects of different colors and textures. All images shot at f8. Shot in Raw, using embedded profile in Lightroom. To begin with, at the wide end of lens (center crop), with the DA 17-70 on the left, the DA 16-85 on the right: Very little difference here, beyond slight contrast advantage for the DA 16-85. Two more crops, one bottom middle, the next far edge crop: The DA 16-85 does look a bit sharper here, but if you were looking at 20 inch prints at normal viewing distance, I doubt you'd see a difference. Now for crops at ~24mm, starting with center crop: The DA 16-85 does look a little sharper here, but I suspect what we're really seeing is more contrast. Edge crop: Very slight and utterly insignificant advantage for the DA 16-85. Both lenses are very good at this focal length. At ~35mm: A little more difference here, all in favor of the DA 16-85, but still hardly rising to the level of significance. At ~50mm: The DA 16-85 pulls ahead a bit more, but pixel peeping exaggerates by how much. At ~70mm: The achilles heel of the 17-70 was always at the long end, so it's no surprise that the 16-85 out performs it here. The DA 17-70 is, optically, a very nice lens. The DA 16-85 would seem to be slightly better: better contrast throughout its range, ever so slightly sharper at the wide end, definitely sharper at the long end.

06-13-2015, 11:02 AM	#9
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by northcoastgreg Just received a DA 16-85, which will be replacing my DA 17-70. . It seems to me 17-70 just has focus problems from 50 till 70 mm and nothing else Why do I think so? 17-70 has the same resolution at 17mm, 24 mm and at 40 mm and just slightly worse at 70 mm at f8. http://www.photozone.de/pentax/408-pentax_1770_4?start=1 That's why I think that 17-70 should show identical IQ at all focal length at f8. Do you use tripod, manual focus? Or LV? If not, the comparison is not correct Last edited by ogl; 06-13-2015 at 11:10 AM.

06-13-2015, 11:20 AM	#11
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	If you look at Klaus measurements over at photozone for the 16-85 from 16mm to 50mm ƒ5.6 always has the highest overall value in the centre at ƒ5.6. By 85mm it's ƒ8. And that's unusual for sure. Pentax HD DA 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6 ED DC WR - Review / Test Report - Analysis The DA 70 has it's highest value at ƒ4, but just barely by ƒ8 it's lost 100 lw/ph Pentax SMC DA 70mm f/2.4 Limited - Review / Lab Test - Analysis APS-c and FF lenses are diffraction limited by ƒ8, so who knows what's going on with the 16-85. It might be the only lens I've ever seen that gets sharper after it's diffraction limit has been reached. A quick look at the 17-70 shows the same characteristic. Anyone have a clue what's going on there? It would seem just on casual analysis that zooms may be sharper at ƒ8. But Pentax's sharpest glass, all seem to peak at ƒ4 and drop off very slowly True of the DA 70, 31 ltd., 77ltd, but most APS_c lenses at most focal lengths peak at the centre at ƒ5.6 Last edited by normhead; 06-13-2015 at 11:25 AM.

06-13-2015, 12:23 PM	#14
simsburyphoto Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 244	My Decision Most test seem to show that 16-85 only marginally better than the 17-70 optically. I will stay with my 17-70 until the autofocus dies (if ever). I have the 18-135 for WR and the other lens that go wider.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
For Sale - Sold: Pentax FA 35, DA 40, A 50, M 50 macro, DA 70, FA 100 macro, DA 10-17 & Rokinon 85	GPZ	Sold Items	9	07-09-2013 12:03 PM
Shootout #2 - DA 15 Ltd / Tamron 17-50 @17 / DA* 16-50 @16 / Sigma 10-20 @16	EarlVonTapia	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	4	06-23-2013 10:17 PM
DA 17-70 + DA60-250 or DA16-50 + DA*50-135	Cambo	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	54	01-01-2011 12:12 AM
DA* 16-50/DA 17-70 & Da 50-135	Oscar1	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	2	02-28-2010 01:29 AM
Looking for head-to-head comparison: DA 17-70 and DA* 16-50	aerodave	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	7	12-25-2009 11:10 AM

06-12-2015, 06:49 PM	#2
Kozlok Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albuquerque Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,148	Most lenses are at least decent at f8...Try again wide open maybe?

06-12-2015, 07:03 PM	#3
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Especially as judged by the long end, I'd say I'm fortunate to perhaps have a better copy of the DA 17-70.

06-12-2015, 07:30 PM	#4
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Thanks for posting this, its useful information for me. As I'd mostly likely use a lens like these for landscapes, comparisons at f/8 are perfect for me. Last edited by luftfluss; 06-12-2015 at 09:08 PM.

06-12-2015, 07:53 PM	#5
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Interesting... no difference, no difference, no difference, big difference.

06-12-2015, 11:00 PM	#6
sbc Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Photos: Albums Posts: 357	Thank you for this post. I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of.

06-13-2015, 04:44 AM	#7
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by sbc Thank you for this post. I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of. ƒ8 is usually the best compromise between depth of field and sharpness, but on most lenses excluding many really expensive lenses, ƒ5.6 is the sharpest.

06-13-2015, 09:26 AM	#8
northcoastgreg Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Northern Michigan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,173 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kozlok Most lenses are at least decent at f8...Try again wide open maybe? Sorry, I'm not sure I'll ever get around that, or that I even care. I don't find f3.5 to f5 all that compelling as aperture to shoot at in a standard zoom range. Not enough depth of field of landscapes, but too much to isolate objects against a background. Also, these two lenses (or at least my two copies) don't perform identically at f8 at all focal lengths. The DA 16-85 is definitely sharper, even at f8. Plus there are issues like flare control, contrast, color rendition, and overall rendering to consider. Originally posted by sbc I believe f8 is usually the sharpest for most zoom lenses so it is good to see what this lens is capable of. If you set up program mode to give you the sharpest aperture for the lens, this is what it will tell you: from 16mm to ~23mm, f5 is sharpest aperture; from ~24mm to ~35mm, f5.6 is the sharpest aperture; from ~36mm to ~43mm, f6.3mm is the sharpest aperture; from ~44mm to ~75mm, f7.1 is the sharpest aperture; and from ~76mm to 85mm, f8 is the sharpest aperture.

06-13-2015, 11:17 AM	#10
jonby Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 161	Thanks for these tests. Every little helps. Testing at f8 is the most useful for me as that is where I would most commonly use a lens like this. As you state, no absolute conclusions can be drawn from these alone, but the 16-85 does look good here, improving on edge sharpness at the wide end and central sharpness at the long end (was your 70mm test a central section or edge?). One thing which can throw these tests off is focusing distance. Did you use magnified live view for this or AF? Also, how is the centering on the 16-85? Is it pretty even on all sides? There seems to be quite a lot of variability between different edges in Pentax zooms I have used.

06-13-2015, 11:24 AM	#12
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by normhead If you look at Klaus measurements over at photozone for the 16-85 from 16mm to 50mm ƒ5.6 always has the highest overall value in the centre at ƒ5.6. By 85mm it's ƒ8. And that's unusual for sure. A quick look at the 17-70 shows the same characteristic. 17-70 has better f5.6 at 17-24 than f8, but at 40 mm - no any difference between f5.6 and f8, and at 70 mm - f8 is better than f5.6

06-13-2015, 11:31 AM - 1 Like	#13
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	I think your 17-70 has focus issues on the long end.. it looks way off and not just soft but truly misfocused.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-13-2015, 12:23 PM - 1 Like	#15
GlennG Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 824	Originally posted by northcoastgreg Just for fun, I took similar shots with the DA 17-70, to get sort of a tentative indication of how they compare. Thanks for the comparisons, Greg. A relevant test for me. The results appear about in line with other reviews, I would say. I will have to look again, but I'm thinking that the performance at 70 mm on my 17-70 is notably better than shown here. The 16-85 appears to be a dandy lens, but my 17-70 is absolutely no slouch either, and I'm very happy with it.