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06-22-2008, 09:01 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Never having used the Canon, I would really like to know in what way the FA77 is so deficient that it's not even fair to compare it to the Canon 85mm f/1.2L.
Did I even say the FA77 was so deficient?
The Canon 85 f/1.2 lens does focus faster, is sharp wide open, especially at the corners. It has aspherical and low dispersion elements and and a floating element design and build quality is very good. You may not believe it but the image quality is truly excellent but such superlative performance unfortunately does come at a price.

The lenses that are closer to the FA77 in specs are the Canon 85 f/1.8 or the Nikon 85 f/1.8D. If there is a weakness of the FA77 it is that corner sharpness is nothing to shout about compared to the other two. I suppose this may not be a issue if it is used for portraits where center sharpness is more important but if you shoot other kinds of subjects, that low edge sharpness at wide apertures is noticeable. PF is another occasional bugbear but thankfully not as bad as the FA43.


Last edited by creampuff; 06-22-2008 at 09:08 AM.
06-22-2008, 12:02 PM   #17
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nice work cputeq, but your comparison conveniently omits the fast telephoto zoom (Canon 70-200 class of lens) because Pentax has no option at all in this category. it should be bread and butter stuff for a lot of photographers and we should be flaming Pentax for their lack of anything in that category, good thing Tamron and Sigma will be filling up that gap this year for us, but i'd prefer a Pentax lens

as well Pentax is absolutely deficient in longer focal lengths as well as T+S
06-22-2008, 01:01 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Did I even say the FA77 was so deficient?
Um, yeah I thought you did. By saying this I did not mean the offense I seem to have caused. In any case I definitely read you this same way in the following, which specifies no less than three ways in which the FA77 is deficient:

QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The Canon 85 f/1.2 lens does focus faster, is sharp wide open, especially at the corners. It has aspherical and low dispersion elements and and a floating element design and build quality is very good. You may not believe it but the image quality is truly excellent but such superlative performance unfortunately does come at a price.

The lenses that are closer to the FA77 in specs are the Canon 85 f/1.8 or the Nikon 85 f/1.8D. If there is a weakness of the FA77 it is that corner sharpness is nothing to shout about compared to the other two. I suppose this may not be a issue if it is used for portraits where center sharpness is more important but if you shoot other kinds of subjects, that low edge sharpness at wide apertures is noticeable. PF is another occasional bugbear but thankfully not as bad as the FA43.
Good info -- thanks. I agree the FA77 is not sharp in the corners and has CA. The first dictates what sort of shots it is best at (center interest) and the second I correct if it's an issue. If I want really sharp I go to the Vivitar Series 1 105mm, though I am still feeling out that lens. Not sure how that would compare to the Canon and Nikon offerings, which sound pretty amazing from your description.
06-22-2008, 02:01 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
nice work cputeq, but your comparison conveniently omits the fast telephoto zoom (Canon 70-200 class of lens) because Pentax has no option at all in this category. it should be bread and butter stuff for a lot of photographers and we should be flaming Pentax for their lack of anything in that category, good thing Tamron and Sigma will be filling up that gap this year for us, but i'd prefer a Pentax lens

as well Pentax is absolutely deficient in longer focal lengths as well as T+S
Of course it's missing the 70-200 class, as I mentioned in the first post: I had to use Pentax as the "common denominator" because they're the company out of the three with the least options.

And I totally agree -- I have no idea why Pentax seems to be avoiding 70-200 f/2.8 like the plague. I sometimes think Pentax enjoys being the oddball, hardheaded asses they are and intentionally avoid "common" ranges as much as they possibly can (note strange lengths on primes and the rather strange 60-250 f/4 proposed lens).



I too would love a Pentax 70-200 f/2.8. I just ordered the DA* 50-135, and I know it's a good lens, but I think it's going to get under my skin that Pentax is darn well capable of making a 70-200, but for whatever reason they have chosen not to. And, like you, I'd rather stay in Pentax glass if I can.



06-22-2008, 04:27 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Good info -- thanks. I agree the FA77 is not sharp in the corners and has CA. The first dictates what sort of shots it is best at (center interest) and the second I correct if it's an issue. If I want really sharp I go to the Vivitar Series 1 105mm, though I am still feeling out that lens. Not sure how that would compare to the Canon and Nikon offerings, which sound pretty amazing from your description.
Fortunate that I've had the opportunity to try out Canon and Nikon gear from friends. My personal opinion of current short tele in the 85mm range, the Canon 85 f/1.2 I'd rank first, the Nikon 85 f/1.8 second and our DA70/FA77 third on the basis of sharpness. Obviously sharpness is but one of several criteria in lens performance. I like my FA77, but I do wish the gap between center and edge sharpness could have been closer like the DA70 or the Nikon 85 f/1.8.

I think it is pointless to compare macro lenses with short teles as they have different design objectives.
06-22-2008, 05:41 PM   #21
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You for got the DA 70MM limited in the portrait arena, yes it's an F2.4 and shorter but at it's price and IQ nothing in Canon or Nikon's camp comes close for under $500. I to hope the 60-250 F4 will be our canon 70-200 F4L, then we would have an almost complete system that can stand toe to toe with the big boys.
06-22-2008, 07:03 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Torphoto Quote
You for got the DA 70MM limited in the portrait arena, yes it's an F2.4 and shorter but at it's price and IQ nothing in Canon or Nikon's camp comes close for under $500. I to hope the 60-250 F4 will be our canon 70-200 F4L, then we would have an almost complete system that can stand toe to toe with the big boys.
No I didn't forget the DA70. While it is a nice compact and sharp lens it feels more like an f/2.8 rather than the f/2.4 it claims to be. For a portrait tele, that's just not fast enough aperture wise in my opinion, but that's because it was made to fulfill the design brief of being a pancake lens (compact and small size).

Personally, I've come to be a bit wary of the build quality of the DA series of lenses (assembled in Vietnam) and examples as such as this doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/239077-post15.html

Yes we all like Pentax glass, but let's not kid ourselves that other makes don't make good glass. The Nikon 85mm f/1.8D (<US$400) by all accounts is a very sharp lens and is actually cheaper than the DA70 and the FA77.
06-22-2008, 07:30 PM   #23
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You ask why they make no 70-200/2.8 for their film bodies? Or what is the question?
The 50-135/2.8 takes the place the 70-200/2.8 takes on a 5D, so Pentax is only true to the crop right now, i'd think once Samsung gets them a full frame sensor and the K1D debuts, you will see a 70-200/2.8.

I admit, a 85/1.8 for $320 is surely missing (And the 55/1.4 (to stay with my crop theory up there) being a DA* and a tad faster will likely miss that price range)

06-23-2008, 05:37 AM   #24
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You can buy the Tokina versions of the 12-24 and 10-17 for Canikon

QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
youve left out the ultra wide zoom

look at pentax 12-24 or 10-17 against Nikon and canon. Also comparative FOV from OLY is 7-14 (for about %1500)

put this in the equation and I'll bet it looks even better
06-23-2008, 05:48 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by egordon99 Quote
You can buy the Tokina versions of the 12-24 and 10-17 for Canikon
Not to mention the Tokina 16-50 and 50-135mm...
06-23-2008, 05:48 AM   #26
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Just my general two sheckels and change from a former Pentax user (now with Canon)
Generally, Pentax tends to be a much better deal than Canon. You have the excellent FA 50mm f/1.4 for ~$200, and it's stabilized!

Compare with Canon's 50mm f/1.4. Also, the $699 Tamron 70-200mm (when it materializes) will be stabilized! Compare with Canon's 70-200mm f/2.8 IS for $1600! Also, Sigma's $700 70-200mm which will have HSM for (hopefully) fast autofocus.

Also, the excellent 50-135mm f/2.8 is stablized on Pentax, but when you get the Tokina version on Canikon, no stabilization...(I think they're close to the same price)

Now the flip side of the coin is Canon's 200mm f/2.8 for $600, much less expensive than the Pentax prime. Also, the excellent 85mm f/1.8 for ~$350 vs. the 77mm Limited (I've used the Limited for a shoot, thanks carpents!, and I now own the 85mm)

And then there's the lenses you just can't get in Pentax....The 100-400, the 70-200mm f/4 IS. Hopefully Sigma will fill in the long end gap with the 120-400 and 150-500 (both are looking really good in Canon-land)

So to summarize, I think it is possible to build an amazing super-fast focusing, extremely versatile kit in Canon which would rival anything Pentax would put out, BUT (and here's the big BUT...) it will COST you, both in dollars AND size/weight. (the Canon "normal" primes are alot bigger than the FA primes)

What Pentax has going for it (as a system) is relative size/compactness and the fact that the sensor is stabilized, saving you upwards of $1K per lens. What you give up (flame suit on....) is perhaps some autofocus performance, and perhaps not being able to find the exact lens you want (some long telephotos, 85mm prime,etc....)

Now nothing about image quality (especially with the new K20D sensor!) as I was more or less 100% happy with what my K10D was spitting out.
06-23-2008, 02:04 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by cupic Quote
When comparing Pentax prices to Canikonians it really says a lot in terms of quailty and afford ability

cheers
Aren't you happy I mentioned Pentax on the Fordforums ... otherwise you have have been talked into a Canikon

There's more out there what just the "2 brands".
06-23-2008, 02:36 PM   #28
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Certainly interesting reading, very tough to compare I guess. I mean in Canikon land a lot of the lenses are really fast USM gear and the AF is just leaps and bounds better.

Also the Nikon 70-300 is a far better lens than the Pentax IMHO.

On the other hand the Pentax gear is uslaly lighter/smaller and optic for optic very comparable at a cheaper price.

IMHO what lets Pentax down is useability not the optics themselves.
06-23-2008, 09:26 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alfisti Quote
IMHO what lets Pentax down is useability not the optics themselves.
What do you mean by "useability"?
06-23-2008, 10:18 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Fortunate that I've had the opportunity to try out Canon and Nikon gear from friends. My personal opinion of current short tele in the 85mm range, the Canon 85 f/1.2 I'd rank first, the Nikon 85 f/1.8 second and our DA70/FA77 third on the basis of sharpness. Obviously sharpness is but one of several criteria in lens performance. I like my FA77, but I do wish the gap between center and edge sharpness could have been closer like the DA70 or the Nikon 85 f/1.8.

I think it is pointless to compare macro lenses with short teles as they have different design objectives.
Nobody has pointed out the sheer size of the Canon 85/1.2, especially compared to the diminutive FA77. And I think you can currently get about three FA77 for the price of one 85/1.2. That said, the 85/1.2 is the one Canon lens that makes me occasionally contemplate selling my entire Pentax kit -- about US$5000 would get you the next Canon FF and that lens. Then I think about lugging that big thing around and come to my senses.
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