Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-01-2016, 11:07 AM   #1
Senior Member
Bunch's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 283
Question: Out-resolve

I see people referencing certain lenses on certain cameras, saying that lens "out-resolves" the camera sensor. How do you know this or measure this?

01-01-2016, 11:15 AM   #2
Pentaxian
bassek's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 706
My initial guess would be that you can't do that. Somehow you could do that the other way round I suppose.

Seb
01-01-2016, 11:22 AM   #3
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North Syracuse, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,464
QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
I see people referencing certain lenses on certain cameras, saying that lens "out-resolves" the camera sensor. How do you know this or measure this?
Go to a site that measures lens resolution, and that tests the same lens with multiple generations of cameras.

If the score goes up with each generation, the lens is out resolving the sensor. If it doesn't go up the sensor is out resolving the lens.
01-01-2016, 11:26 AM   #4
Senior Member
Bunch's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 283
Original Poster
Any site links?

01-01-2016, 11:32 AM   #5
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: traverse city MI
Posts: 346
Most sensors have a long way to go before they out resolve the really good lenses. the cheaper lenses like the Tamron 70-300 and kit lenses have been caught by and passed by some sensors.

Last edited by MikeD; 01-01-2016 at 11:43 AM.
01-01-2016, 11:35 AM   #6
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North Syracuse, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,464
QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
Any site links?
Camera Lens Ratings by DxOMark - DxOMark

As an example, the Sigma 150-500

On a K-5 it scored a 10

Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 APO DG OS HSM Pentax mounted on Pentax K-5 : Tests and Reviews

On the K-5 II S it scored an 11

Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 APO DG OS HSM Pentax mounted on Pentax K-5 IIs : Tests and Reviews

On the K-3 it also scores an 11

Sigma 150-500mm F5-6.3 APO DG OS HSM Pentax mounted on Pentax K-3 : Tests and Reviews
01-01-2016, 12:10 PM   #7
Administrator
Site Webmaster
Adam's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arizona
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 51,584
Generally speaking it's much more common for a good camera to be too good for a bad lens than the other way around. In other words, you can't go wrong with sticking a premium lens on a lower end body. Hope this non-technical perspective helps!


Adam
PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide | Site Help | My Photography)



PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:
01-01-2016, 12:16 PM - 1 Like   #8
Veteran Member
ScooterMaxi Jim's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,520
This is a complex topic, and fortunately misused references to the Nyquist Limit have abated in recent years as it has become fairly clear that there is no such thing as a too-sharp optic or pixel density that over-matches a lens. To gain a real understanding, it is helpful to read the full article I'm linking, but I'll summarize:
https://luminous-landscape.com/do-sensors-out-resolve-lenses/

For practical purposes, the answer is "no" to the question whether you pose it as sensors out-resolving, or lenses out-resolving. A very good lens on a low-pixel count sensor will plateau such that perhaps apertures f/4-8 look equally sharp across the frame, but the lens will show some additional detail at its peak f-stop (say f/5.6 for example) on a denser sensor. However, it is safe to say the overall resolution performance of a lens will improve as pixel counts raise. Even relatively low resolution lenses have improved markedly on the K-3, and the sharpest lenses I own also have improved (as noted in the DxO charts, for example).

The article is interesting on other levels. All those DA shooters moving to FF beware, matching lenses to their proper sensor size is a lot more complex than whether or not the image circle is covered adequately.
01-01-2016, 12:17 PM   #9
Senior Member
Bunch's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 283
Original Poster
So does this mean the Bigma topped out with the K-5II, since it didn't improve on the K-3, like the DA*300 did?
01-01-2016, 12:19 PM   #10
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
boriscleto's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: North Syracuse, NY
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 16,464
QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
So does this mean the Bigma topped out with the K-5II, since it didn't improve with K-3, like the DA*300 did?
According to DxO, yes. But the results are always suspect with DxO. The lil'Bigma rates higher on the K10D than the K20D...
01-01-2016, 12:37 PM   #11
Veteran Member
blende8's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bremen, Germany
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,521
Here is an image from a lenstest of mine.
At the number 4 (red arrow) it appears that the orientation of the bars is changing. Here the frequency is so high that the sensor cannot cope with it anymore correctly and artificial, "spurious" patterns appear. I think this has to do with the Nyquist theorem.

01-01-2016, 01:46 PM   #12
Veteran Member
ScooterMaxi Jim's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,520
QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
According to DxO, yes. But the results are always suspect with DxO. The lil'Bigma rates higher on the K10D than the K20D...
I completely agree - use caution regarding the precise DxO numbering.

Also, the references in the earlier post regarding DxO were related to overall quality - not the sharpness setting. When a lens is rated at 6 mp at its sharpest setting, that could mean 5.55 mp on the K5iis and 6.45 mp on the K3 - but show up as simply 6 mp due to rounding. Also, keep in mind, that is the rating for one arbitrary focal length and one aperture setting. Many of the better Pentax lenses look relatively weak when looking these numerical ratings because their "best" setting is not terribly high, but a wide variety of other settings are strong (focal length and aperture combinations). And then there is contrast - a Pentax strong suite not measured by DxO.

---------- Post added 01-01-2016 at 02:51 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Here is an image from a lenstest of mine.
At the number 4 (red arrow) it appears that the orientation of the bars is changing. Here the frequency is so high that the sensor cannot cope with it anymore correctly and artificial, "spurious" patterns appear. I think this has to do with the Nyquist theorem.
When you blow things up to 400x, it can be any number of factors involved in the muddled mess you have posted. However, it looks like simple CA for the most part. It almost certainly has nothing to do with the Nyquist theorem, or any other theory related to the idea of sensor out-resolving the lens. It is possible that the sensor itself has some noise issues... but that would be separate from the Nyquist Limit.
01-01-2016, 04:19 PM   #13
Senior Member




Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 100
Sensors don't out resolve lenses.

I agree with you Jim (Robins). I think there is a great many urban myths out there regarding photography. One of them is the concept of sensors out resolving lens. For a bit more research the OP can have a look here Re: Do older lenses have enough resolving power for the new 24MP APS-C sensors?: Photographic Science and Technology Forum: Digital Photography Review where that entire thread addresses the notion that sensors out resolve lens. James Sheehy, ProfHankD, Jim Klasson, Jack Hogan are very knowledgeable fellowes as are Falk Lumo and The_Suede both of which address the concept of lens acuity and sensors in a related referenced post on the thread above.

The bottom line is that a sensors become more dense the lens used will continue to improve in performance relative to its own performance on a lower density sensor. What you really must ask is whether a better quality lens will (cost effectively) provide the absolute acuity and clarity among other characteristics that you would like at the sensor pixel density and format you are using.
01-02-2016, 02:22 AM   #14
Veteran Member
blende8's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bremen, Germany
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,521
I agree that blowing up the image to 400% is extreme, but you have to do something to get to the pixel level.
I observe this often in the USAF testsheet that at a certain point the bars change direction, which is a typical sign of Nyquist artifacts.
01-02-2016, 03:00 AM   #15
Veteran Member
kh1234567890's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Manchester, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,653
QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
I agree that blowing up the image to 400% is extreme, but you have to do something to get to the pixel level
Why not look at the RAW images before demosaicing ?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aperture, dxo, k-mount, length, lens, mp, pentax, pentax lens, post, sensor, slr lens
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax Optio S Firmware Needed to resolve A90 error scagnettos Troubleshooting and Beginner Help 7 01-24-2018 01:10 AM
K3II focus point selection question - i couldn't resolve from the manual mikeSF Pentax K-3 & K-3 II 5 12-06-2015 10:57 AM
DA* 50 back focus - ways to resolve? LFLee Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 4 12-23-2012 09:46 PM
HDMI out question i83N Pentax K-5 & K-5 II 9 09-19-2012 12:19 PM
What is the smallest thing I could resolve with a DSLR? Douglas_of_Sweden Photographic Technique 26 08-13-2012 11:19 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:24 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top