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01-03-2016, 01:45 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
in general, ibis/ois can be a mixed bag when used on a tripod... even in the best case, it introduces another variable.
I'm a bit confused about your earlier comment which said 1/500 sec handheld was pushing things too far, and your response (above) to my question about that. Those initial tests didn't use the tripod.
I guess it depends on how steady one can hold the camera and lens, but as a general rule is it asking too much of the SR to shoot handheld at 1/500sec at 450mm + 1.4TC?

[edit] OK, just found some info here https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/6-pentax-dslr-discussion/97590-pentax-sha...ed-test-2.html, post #21 which helps. It suggests that with FL approaching 1000mm you need to be using about 1/4000sec, handheld with SR. That is for K-7.


Cheers,
Terry


Last edited by tduell; 01-03-2016 at 02:25 PM. Reason: Additional info
01-03-2016, 06:41 PM   #17
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You are shooting the 150-450 + a TC hand held! I have hard enough time holding that beast semi steady at 450 by itself! Must be getting old
01-03-2016, 08:12 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ex Finn. Quote
You are shooting the 150-450 + a TC hand held! I have hard enough time holding that beast semi steady at 450 by itself! Must be getting old
Well I'm no spring chicken, and it can be a handful, but I find trying to shoot birds handheld is easier than off a tripod or monopod.

Cheers,
Terry
01-03-2016, 08:21 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
I did a series of IQ tests of several long lenses with and without the HD1.4X. See the long lens thread* starting on page 1259.

*The 300mm plus long lens club discuss your long lenses"

Damn fine test it was too
.....everyone shooting long glass should look it up and explore your findings!

Regards!

01-05-2016, 02:04 PM   #20
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It looks like everyone has lost interest in this.
looking carefully at the results I got from with and without tripod and at the all the tests in the 300mm plus long lens club, I am satisfied that the 450+TC can produce sharp images, and that my experiences are due to shooting technique/settings.
I have been patiently waiting for some advice on whether there are any camera settings that one could use to shoot hand at 450+ TC and get a sharp result.
Much earlier I was told that shooting with 1/500 sec handheld was asking too much, but never got a specific answer to my question about that.
The data in the link I included in post #16 suggests 1/4000 sec is needed for sharp images at 1000mm with K-7.
The story I see often quoted is that one should use 1/FL sec, which in round numbers, suggests 1/1000 sec for 450+TC, but I was under the impression that was a rule that was to be applied if you didn't have SR.
I also understand that the K-3 II can provide SR of about 4.5 stops, so my naive take on that is that shooting handheld at 1/500 sec with SR should be OK.
I would appreciate advice that would clarify all of the above.

Cheers,
Terry
01-05-2016, 02:38 PM   #21
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Camera/lens shake is probably the most common cause of poor IQ, especially with long lenses. The old rule of a shutter speed at least 1/FL for hand-held should probably be followed even with SR. My advice would be use at least a monopod, preferably a tripod at any FL from about 250mm up. Remember: the 150-450 + 1.4XTC @ maximum extension is a nominal 630mm, but it's equivalent to almost 1000mm for 35mm. NO ONE expecting sharp images would attempt to hand-hold at that focal length. Look at the pros along the sidelines at a football game. How many are hand-holding their big glass?
01-05-2016, 03:22 PM   #22
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Hello WP,
Thanks for your advice.
That really buggers up the bird shooting prospects with the TC!
I have tried using a monopod and found it very difficult to use when wandering around in the bush.
Sitting in the one spot on the sidelines of a sports field is quite a different story, I reckon, and in that situation I would use a monopod as well.
I have had excellent results handheld without the TC, but it certainly sounds like I have to rethink.

Cheers,
Terry
01-05-2016, 03:55 PM   #23
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I don't think anyone here is saying you _can't_ do hand-held, but will a much higher shutter speed than you expect. I find that the stabilization works great out to about 100-200mm (I don't shoot in that range much so I'm not sure) but it has almost no effect at 300mm because of the high required shutter speeds for shooting hand-held. With a monopod, it's probably still a mixed bag but I think it helps a little based on the brief testing of the monopod I got for Christmas. I know it's doable to shoot dragonflies in flight at 300mm hand-held with ~1/4000s exposure just dandy, that should be enough to handle even your longer lens with TC as well! (Though it required ~ISO 800 on a bright, clear day with my DA55-300 and a lot of patience!)

As an amusing anecdote, I had SR on when attached to a 1600mm equiv. telescope and the vibration even on a sturdy telescope tripod was enough to make it do very very bad things in live view mode. It basically just shook the sensor back and forth enough to actually _add_ vibration to the system in a positive feedback loop until the whole thing was buzzing and the sensor was clacking back and forth audibly. I will forever check to make sure to turn it off before entering live view on long tele after that scare that I was damaging my SR system...

01-05-2016, 08:02 PM   #24
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When I test I use a tripod, flash or studio strobe, cable release and LV focus. It keeps the variables down. The hand held shots w/o TC are amazingly good, though.

Last edited by GeneV; 01-05-2016 at 08:42 PM.
01-05-2016, 08:11 PM   #25
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I think it's important for the OP to focus on the initial question which many here have been trying to help with. You wanted to know if the lens and TC combo needed AF adjustment. Until you know for sure that the combo can shoot well in a controlled test, as GeneV alludes, with a tripod, flash, release, etc, then I think you will be constantly second guessing handheld shots and whether it was shake or bad AF or whatever. Once you are able to test and verify that the combo performs as expected with a limited number of variables, then introducing new variables (handheld, shutter speed, etc.) will help point to the cause of any issues. Perhaps you've moved on from the suspicion of an AF issue but I still think there is value to being systematic in your testing and evaluation of the equipment and your technique without having so many variables that you cannot make reasonable deductions.
01-05-2016, 08:47 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
Hello WP,
That really buggers up the bird shooting prospects with the TC!

Cheers,
Terry
Maybe you should invest in a gimbal head mounted to a tripod. More stable than a monopod and easier to maneuver if you ask me. Regardless, the hard part with that much magnification would be finding the bird in the first place, particularly if it's in flight. My 2 cents...
Daryl
01-05-2016, 08:50 PM   #27
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That is the rig I use for AF adjustment as well.

For a 450mm plus TC, flash may not be practical and a brick wall in constant daylight will have to do. Slow shutter speeds, even on a tripod, are a problem in evaluating a long lens. Last year I was trying to run some comparisons on a 500mm with and without TC, and I was amazed at the difference in tripod based exposures with shutter speeds even under 1/400, and more so under 1/250. If your lens is effectively at around 700mm and it is a long lever extending from your tripod, it takes very little force to cause movement.
01-05-2016, 09:14 PM   #28
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I know that this may not be the only relevant advice, but if I were testing something like that I would use some simple settings on a good day out near where I could include some birding and maybe some plants/trees. Also, I would make sure to give enough distance between myself and subject, knowing that if I get too close the telephoto lens will not be able to recognize the subject, depending on focal length being used. When you have been doing your testing, I am not sure if you have that factored in, but that can effect your shots. Anyway I would use spot AF in Continuous AF mode along with SR and just do some simple shooting to test. For example some leaves at 320 shutter speed and F10 in TAV mode, then try some birding at 1000 or 1200 shutter speed and F7 or F8 in TAV mode. Then just examine the results for worthy detail. I have done shooting with a Sigma150-500/K5IIS combination handheld with SR and blur due to my handling is not an issue if I use the appropriate shutter speed and other settings. I shoot flowers at shutter speeds with my 150-500 below 100 and have detailed results. If you conduct simple tests with common shooting types like I mentioned above, or if you already have, the results should give you an actual result that is a product of your equipment/handling/settings you can analyze. The results that you had that are blurred seem to be misfocussed as was already mentioned. I would think that per positive reviews pertaining to the converter retaining detail to an acceptable level that it would not produce excessive blur if being used normally. Please know it is hard for me to tell exactly how you are doing your tests and I am not trying to imply you are doing something wrong, I just wanted to give you some feedback. Good luck!

Last edited by C_Jones; 01-05-2016 at 09:19 PM.
01-05-2016, 10:26 PM   #29
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Just to clarify, the question in my mind did change when I had more carefully pondered on my test images, and I came to the view that the problem was not hardware but shooting technique/settings. I think I did talk about this.
I have received some good advice on this.
Thanks to all who responded.

Cheers,
Terry
01-06-2016, 05:53 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by tduell Quote
Just to clarify, the question in my mind did change when I had more carefully pondered on my test images, and I came to the view that the problem was not hardware but shooting technique/settings. I think I did talk about this.
I have received some good advice on this.
Thanks to all who responded.

Cheers,
Terry
After a while, these discussions usually take on a life of their own beyond the original question.

However, to one of your comments about technique, I use my long lenses primarily for birding, and a monopod is my friend. For my lenses at 300mm+ the lens is naked without it. For birds in flight, my max for hand holding is a DA*300, usually at four figure shutter speeds, but maybe at 1/500. I find the in-body SR not to be helpful on very long (500mm and above) lenses. The three stop boost is a bit hyped regardless, but my understanding is that the difficulty getting enough vibration resistance at long focal lengths is the reason most other brands rely upon correction in the lens. For sharp BIF shots with a long lens, my tripod with a gimbal is needed. Unlike the monopod, that does put a serious crimp in the handling of bird photos.
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