[RAART]

@digitalis

As you have optical bench and can test the lenses and we are here just by coincidence talking about sharpens and resolution, do you have any impression about Leica 100 mm f/2.8 APO-Macro-Elmarit-R. I am possibly eyeing this one to have only one MF macro lens but not sure how it is resolving as I do not know anyone who has it. Maybe you can shed some light there or better if you have some practical figures about resolving power on this one.

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Last edited by RAART; 02-05-2016 at 04:26 AM.

[Digitalis]

It's a good medium format reproduction lens, i'll give you that. But it is far from diffraction limited.

[WPRESTO]

I might also note that some enlarging lenses, specifically those designated APO Componon and APO Rodagon have excellent resolution PROVIDED you use them at particular reproduction ratios. They do not work well at infinity and typical routine photo distances, but are excellent at typical enlarging ranges (about 1:10 to 1:2). In reversed mounting they have excellent IQ in the life size to slightly enlarged range (about 1:1 to 2.5:1 or 3:1). These lenses general have their best performance wide open to one stop down. By two stops down (typically f5.6) diffraction starts having a significant impact.

[tgchan]

In the past I have been more open with test scores of lenses but over the years I have copped a LOT of flak for publicly mentioning the sharpest lenses I have ever tested...I had to leave RF forums for several months before the torches were extinguished and the pitchforks were dropped .
.

Is there any place where we can see those results? I am really curious about it and would love to read some information about them from you. I don't get how people can get angry etc. over some tests... but again... they are people.

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Last edited by tgchan; 02-05-2016 at 09:54 AM.

[Na Horuk]

Thanks for the good laugh, I needed that this morning. In a nutshell: no.

Then you're gonna love this:
https://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/cln_archiv/cln24_en_web.pdf

Zeiss claims some of their lenses go up to 300 lp/mm. From the linked article: "Planar T* 1,4/50 ZF went even further: It reached 320", " result was a whopping 400lp/mm on film, recorded with the Biogon 25 at f/4."
They also claim certain ISO 25 film reaches 320+ and 400+ lp/mm

The replies to this claim tend to be that the methodology Zeiss used is a bit skewed. But that's marketing for you.

Anyway, didn't Pentax make a 50mm that was called the "Planar-killer"?

[Digitalis]

I don't get how people can't get angry etc. over some tests... but again... they are people.

These aren't you ordinary crowd of disinterested photographers, they are Leicaphiles.

---------- Post added 02-05-16 at 11:23 PM ----------

Zeiss claims some of their lenses go up to 300 lp/mm. From the linked article: "Planar T* 1,4/50 ZF went even further: It reached 320", " result was a whopping 400lp/mm on film, recorded with the Biogon 25 at f/4." They also claim certain ISO 25 film reaches 320+ and 400+ lp/mm

That marketing blurb is hilarious, hyperbole and a half. Zeiss lenses can produce remarkable resolution but there are a few hundred caveats on the conditions required to obtain that degree of resolution. The Zeiss quoted figures are meaningless, since there is no clear cut data to back it up. For reasons i'm well aware of Zeiss didn't provide the contrast level for 400 lp/mm resolution. I am sure Zeiss is aware of that issue , so all this 400 lp/mm talk is just marketing at its worst. Written in 2006, long before cameras like the D800 were on the market.

Incidentally, my testing bench is made by Zeiss. It cost a fortune, and it was initially made to test 645 and large format lenses, but I have since bought lensboards from zeiss that can handle 35mm lenses, even lenses with electronic apertures.

[yucatanPentax]

... it's competitor the FA31mm f/1.8 is considerably sharper in the corners at f/4.

Now you've got me curious -- and I'm fresh out of kerosene for torches and the catburglars have run away with my pitchfork so no arguments for me, I'm just curious about your opinion --

-- of the new and used regularly available Pentax APS-C / FF lenses, which would you say are among the sharpest? The FA 31mm f/1.8? FA 50mm macro? Do you have a Top Three? Eight?

[stevebrot]

Yes they are... Orthoplanar is, as long I can remember better than 300lp/mm and the Focotar is 280 lp/mm.

How is this tested? Direct projection of a resolution slide?


Steve

[tgchan]

Now you've got me curious -- and I'm fresh out of kerosene for torches and the catburglars have run away with my pitchfork so no arguments for me, I'm just curious about your opinion --

-- of the new and used regularly available Pentax APS-C / FF lenses, which would you say are among the sharpest? The FA 31mm f/1.8? FA 50mm macro? Do you have a Top Three? Eight?

and you are not alone I would love to read about it too.

Come on, Digitalis. We promise not to use any pitchforks and torches

[Dewman]

That thread loses all credibility when Falconeye says the FA50mm macro "isn't in the top league" compared to other 35mm lenses. About five or six years ago, that lens was still sitting as the third sharpest lens for any system ever measured by Photodo, above any of the limiteds and prestige lenses by the various Euro manufacturers.

Right on, dcshooter!

[Pioneer]

Thanks for the good laugh, I needed that this morning. In a nutshell: no.

This is a very general question, In the lines of commercially produced lenses presently available, there isn't a single lens from any maker that can resolve 300 line pairs per millimeter (lp/mm). Theoretically any lens designed well enough and constructed with high enough tolerances can accomplish this feat- but here is the catch: there isn't any panchromatic film or sensor capable of recording this much information in a single shot*, so there really isn't much point. An optically perfect diffraction limited f/1 lens theoretically can resolve 1400lp/mm. But there are too many variables in the imaging system that get in the way of a lens delivering that kind of resolving power.

So far commercially available digital sensors can't even record this much detail in a single shot.There isn't a lens on the planet** short of Ultraviolet super-apochromatic lenses used in IC fabrication plants that that can accomplish this degree of resolution in a single image.

It is actually really difficult to test high resolution lenses because vibrations travel through the ground - i'm only a few blocks away from the local train station, and only a street over from a main road. Vibrations can have a negative impact on the measurement of really high frequency MTF values. I do most of my testing at night when the trains aren't running and there is less traffic around. In the past I have been more open with test scores of lenses but over the years I have copped a LOT of flak for publicly mentioning the sharpest lenses I have ever tested...I had to leave RF forums for several months before the torches were extinguished and the pitchforks were dropped .

* some Ortho films and multishot MFDB equipped cameras come close to being able to record this much detail.
** the CIA allegedly might have some of them peering down on us from satellites.

I'm glad I was able to give you a chuckle. I do appreciate that I am not as knowledgeable on optics as many others. However, the question still stands.

So, since a lens capable of resolving 300 lp/mm does not exist no matter what camera system you may enjoy, what are the highest resolving lenses available for the Pentax 35mm system.

You mentioned the Sigma 35/1.4 and the Pentax limited 31/1.8. I own the later and I will look into the former. Are there others that should be considered.

As for the Pentax Q 01 lens, i agree that it is a nice lens, but it doesn't help on film.

---------- Post added 02-05-2016 at 09:01 PM ----------

I do agree about no pitchforks or torches. At this point I am only interested in working with the best possible Pentax mount lens regardless of manufacturer or price. Zeiss certainly has what appear to be some promising lenses as does Sigma. But I think that there are likely some top notch Pentax glass.

Besides wanting to use as good a lens as I can find for this project, this is actually quite an interesting topic.

[Digitalis]

since a lens capable of resolving 300 lp/mm does not exist no matter what camera system you may enjoy

I never said they didn't exist, it is just that they aren't commercially produced for the buying public. And even if they were, their seven figure prices would make even a oil sheikh balk.

what are the highest resolving lenses available for the Pentax 35mm system.

Other High resolution lenses from third party makers that are( or at least should be) capable of approaching or exceeding 100lp/mm @ f/4~f/8aperture range you should look into:

Anything from Carl Zeiss made in the past decade in K mount.
Voigtlander 40mm f/2 SL ,75mm f/2.5 SL, 90mm f/3.5 SL ,125mm f/2.5SL and 180mm f/4 SL - these lenses are tricky to find. The APO-Lanthar 125mm f/2.5 Macro SL in particular is an extraordinary lens. One of the highest resolution lenses I have ever tested
Any lens from Schneider ( that isn't a flimsy rebadge) is bound to be decent.
Certain Vivitar lenses are said to be quite good ( I never used any of them, but I thought I would mention that)


On 35mm the pickings for lenses that can approach or exceed 100lp/mm @ f/4~f/8 aperture range in K mount are pretty thin, I'd suggest you look at:
FA31mm f/1.8 Limited
Sigma 35mm f/1.4 ART
FA43mm f/1.9 Limited
Pentax SMCP-K 50mm f/1.2
Sigma 70mm f/2.8 Macro
FA77mm f/1.8 Limited
FA*85mm f/1.4 (some say the A version is better)
Sigma 85mm f/1.4
D-FA 100mm f/2.8 WR
Sigma 105mm f/2.8 Macro
FA*200mm f/4 ED [IF]Macro ( the A version has slightly lower contrast than the FA,which has improved coatings)


That is pretty much it.

[vrolok]

Perhaps also some other good macro lenses... The older Pentax 100's, the FA 50, or the vivitar 90 and tokina bokina. Or old and modern Tamron 90.
Cheers

[WPRESTO]

These aren't you ordinary crowd of disinterested photographers, they are Leicaphiles.

One of my photobuddies in college was a Leicaphile. They aren't quite from another planet, but they do have one quality E. Hoffer assigned to "The True Believer," namely a "fact-proof screen." They know they have the answer, therefore anything that contradicts that answer must wrong, even if it is demonstrably, self-evidently correct. I had a long argument with him over the problems of making a 50mm f2 lens for a Leica, versus a 8-inch f5.6 lens for a view camera. He contended that the small lens was much more difficult to make, which justified the high price of his Summicron. I sugested that 1) lens alignment tolerances are the same; 2) making a large piece of perfect optical glass is more difficult than making a small piece; 3) grinding a large surface to 1/4 wavelength tolerance is more difficult than grinding a small surface to that tolerance. He just said no, not so.

[Digitalis]

Perhaps also some other good macro lenses... The older Pentax 100's, the FA 50, or the vivitar 90 and tokina bokina

The FA50 can get close to 100lp/mm but it never gets past that limit, on the other hand the K/A50mm f/1.2 lenses beat it by a considerable margin. The older 100mm Macro lenses are problematic with focus distances approaching infinity, as they are optimized for close focusing. The current tokina 90mm f/2.8 is very good* at close focus but again, but it isn't quite as good at longer focus distances - it is a lens that has gone through a few iterations over the years I haven't tested them all.

*Tokina AT-X 90mm f/2.5 - the classic "bokina" first version released 1986, a decade after Vivtar released a lens with basically identical optical design as part of the Series 1 lens line.Tokina who manufactured the original Vivitar Series 1 90mm. There is ample speculation that Tokina either purchased Vivitar's design (perhaps near or after their demise) or adapted it to their own, abounds. As far as records, dates, and other empirical data proving any of these allegations is sparse at best. But for me it is pretty obvious - The Vivitar is a Tokina lens, if you tested the Vivitar next to the Tokina you would perhaps see a 2% difference in overall MTF. I have tested two copies of the classic bokina and they it is remarkably good, the modern Tokina 90mm f/2.8 version isn't quite as good as the original IMO.

The Vivitar S1/Tokina 90mm f/2.5 can be found ranked among the top few lenses on Photodo's greatest lenses chart. Below are Photodo's top 5 ranked lenses, based on an array of scientific performance tests:

1. Grade: 4.8 35mm/AF Canon EF 200/1,8L USM
2. Grade: 4.7 35mm/AF Contax G Planar 45/2,0
3. Grade: 4.6 35mm/MF Tokina AT-X 90/2,5 macro (Vivitar Series 1 90mm)
4. Grade: 4.6 35mm/MF Pentax SMC-A 85/1,4
5. Grade: 4.6 35mm/MF LeicaR Elmarit-R 90/2,8 discontinued


The classic Bokina has remarkably low chromatic aberration - rivaling that of Schneider macro lenses worth three times as much, which have chromatic aberrations measured down to 4µm. The filter thread on the Bokina - 55mm is rather uncommon, the Vivitar version had a 58mm filter thread.