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07-16-2008, 06:23 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
forget about the tests. See for yourself. I never go by that. That's like saying the EF lenses from Canon don't work well on the crop cameras.... baloney. That's my opinion but Image quality is decided by me eyes not someones "tests"
Those EF which were designed to work well on FF DSLR - will work well. A good example is Nikkors: 14-24mm f/2.8 & 28mm f/2 AIS or 105mm f/2.5 AIS
I respect your opinion but I'd rather trust a credible source or two which have tested hundreds of lenses and know what to look for while testing the lenses.

photozone.de is one of those resources.

You have a film & digital sensors behind the lenses. That's two different mediums, the final results will always look differently and the lenses which were optimised for the digital cameras will perform better. Makes sense.


Last edited by alexgn; 07-16-2008 at 06:28 AM.
07-16-2008, 06:26 AM   #62
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We should really try that.
07-16-2008, 06:30 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by alexgn Quote
Those EF which were designed to work well on FF DSLR - will work well. A good example is Nikkors: 14-24mm f/2.8 & 28mm f/2 AIS or 105mm f/2.5 AIS
I respect your opinion but I'd rather trust a credible source or two which have tested hundreds of lenses and know what to look for while testing the lenses.

photozone.de is one of those resources.

You have a film & digital sensors behind the lenses. That's two different mediums, the final results will always look differently and the lenses which were optimised for the digital cameras will perform better. Makes sense.
Thing is, in photography, the photographer should try to "trust" his or her eyeballs. Otherwise, I know tons of people who can quote articles but have no idea of about actually taking pictures. Tell us what YOUR opinion is after using these 2 lenses. I've told you mine.
07-16-2008, 06:34 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
Thing is in photography, the photographer should try to "trust" his or her eyeballs. Otherwise, I know tons of people who can quote articles but have no idea of about actually taking pictures. Tell us what YOUR opinion is after using these 2 lenses. I've told you mine.
The thing is you are probably biased and your opinion might be wrong. The tests of a lens tester might be wrong too. But when you get a consistent trend which is obvious during the tests of older lenses which were designed for film, from Nikon, Canon, Minolta or Pentax then you just have to be a bit more rational.

07-16-2008, 06:38 AM   #65
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I stand by my opinion as I'm a photographer and I use my eyes and my images. If you want to quote tests from websites instead of your own images then go right ahead.
07-16-2008, 06:41 AM   #66
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Iíve stated a couple of times on this forum that I am planning to buy Limited editions; I considered the 31mm f/1.8. After reading reviews, comments and looking at sample pictures I know how I am going to spend my money. It will 40mm, 70mm for wide angle I am undecided. I would like to see the results of the new Carl Zeiss 18mm f/3.5 Manual Focus lens on Pentax digital bodies.

07-16-2008, 06:44 AM   #67
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enjoy. I'm sure you'll be happy either way.
07-16-2008, 06:48 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
I stand by my opinion as I'm a photographer and I use my eyes and my images. If you want to quote tests from websites instead of your own images then go right ahead.

No worries, sharpshoota ...

07-16-2008, 07:48 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by sharpshoota Quote
I stand by my opinion as I'm a photographer and I use my eyes and my images. If you want to quote tests from websites instead of your own images then go right ahead.
I recall one website tester in particular, it may have been photozone, I don't recall for sure, that consistently gave Pentax lenses that I owned and got superb results from very poor marks. The really interesting thing was that I was able to compare on my own, real world pictures taken with my "bad" Pentax lenses against some Nikkors that they tested as very good.
Correction, I believe it was Chasseur du Image, or something like that.
I was only able to conclude that they either had a very biased testing procedure, or else their equipment was way out of whack when it came to mounting up Pentax glass.
It was at that point that I stopped concerning myself with lens tests and started taking pictures instead.
One doesn't know what sort of procedure is used for these tests. For example, in the tests where the 40mm lens came out better than the 31mm lens, was the test done on a camera or a test bench? If it was done on a camera, was AF used? If so, was it properly dialed in for both lenses? Was manual focus used? In which case was focus bracketing done to ensure both lenses were critically focused? Did they take into account anything other than absolute resolution numbers? Did they test for optical aberrations? Did they compare bokeh? Does the extra stop of speed matter to the end user?
My understanding is that the DA40mm LTD is the same optical design as the old 40mm f/2.8 pancake lens, dressed up in modern clothes.
If my information regarding this is true, and I have no reason to doubt my information source, I have a very hard time believing that the now 25 year old 40mm lens would be as good as the much more recently designed 31mm lens. That my own picture taking puts the 31mm somewhat better than the 40mm lens bears this out.
BTW, I have no particular bias here. I am not justifying the purchase of an expensive lens, as once I buy a lens, I rarely sell it, and I never look back.
They are both very good lenses, you won't go wrong with either.
07-16-2008, 08:04 AM   #70
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Alexgn, Do you have any links to some of the results showing (or speculating on) DA or made-for-digital lenses being actually superior overall on digital vs. the best from the film era? Because the only article I remember seeing that implied that directly was a comparison of the DA 70ltd and FA 77ltd - and the conclusion wasn't that the DA 70 was 'better', just that it had certain characteristics that were more tuned to digital (edge-to-edge sharpness at certain apertures, if I recall.)

Ive shot my FA 77ltd on both film and digital, and I have to say, my digital images were better than anything I could get on film. Of course, there are factors that could have affected that, like film quality, technique, processing, etc, but unless those things could have been vastly improved between film sessions, they couldn't have affected it enough to make a difference - my digital output (k20D) beat my film output (ZX-30, Ilford B&W, some other good color film, don't remember.) I really liked the film output, though - especially the B&W, it had a look that was very pleasing to me - but any non-photog looking at the results would have preferred the digital FA 77 images 99% of the time.

That lens does not take a step down in front of a sensor.

Also, I don't own the DA70 ltd to compare directly to the FA 77, but I can say that although my DA 40 is very sharp, has excellent color, contrast, almost no CA, and great edge-to-edge sharpness - my FA 77ltd is the better lens. MTF + microcontrast results in a perception of sharpness/pop that's the best in my bag (most of the time.)


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07-16-2008, 08:30 AM   #71
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QuoteQuote:
.............That lens does not take a step down in front of a sensor.
................
That is true, the MTF resolution does not change, but but film and sensors process the information differently, and process different amounts of information, depending on the specific film or sensor. That's why the coatings are different on the "digital" lenses.
07-16-2008, 09:43 AM   #72
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About Photozone lens tests. This extract is from a blog dedicated to Pentax:

Continuing with LBA week, I just wanted to point out that Klaus Schroiff, Photozone.de's resident Pentax lens enthusiast, has posted a whole slew of new and updated lens reviews taken with the K10D this month. Keeping in mind that lens characteristics are different between sensors and camera models and even your RAW conversion process (he uses ACR), it makes sense that many of the lenses are all reviewed with Pentax's current top-shelf camera, the K10D. What I like about Klaus' reviews are that he cuts right to the chase with pertinent studies of lens distortion, vignetting, CA, and MTF acuity (sharpness) across a number of apertures and zoom ranges. In fact, it's easy to take in a whole review very quickly and understand right away what his tests, using Imatest, show to be the best apertures and focal lengths are for lens performance. Also, there are usually at least a half-dozen sample images at full resolution so you can get a better idea of real world practice with the lenses.

OK1000 Pentax Blog: Photozone Pentax Lens Reviews Updates
07-16-2008, 10:01 AM   #73
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alexgn, you might be right technically saying that the DA40 is "better" than the FA31. However, how would you address points such as the following:

1) The FA31 has a wider field of view and faster max aperture, and covers FF. You may as well be comparing a wide angle lens to a 50mm macro and wonder why the macro is so much "better".

2) Despite what graphs may say, the proof is in the pictures. I would say the graphs are relatively accurate (basically, stopping down a bit is good, but who would've thought that!), but way overexaggerated. In particular, the graphs for the DA14, DA21, FA*24, FA43, and FA77 paint a picture (pun intended) far bleaker than what is experienced in practice, and whenever these lenses get mentioned in comparisons, the graphs are almost always misused, particularly from people who have never shot photos with them.
07-16-2008, 10:18 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by jslifoaw Quote
alexgn, you might be right technically saying that the DA40 is "better" than the FA31. However, how would you address points such as the following:

1) The FA31 has a wider field of view and faster max aperture, and covers FF. You may as well be comparing a wide angle lens to a 50mm macro and wonder why the macro is so much "better".

2) Despite what graphs may say, the proof is in the pictures. I would say the graphs are relatively accurate (basically, stopping down a bit is good, but who would've thought that!), but way overexaggerated. In particular, the graphs for the DA14, DA21, FA*24, FA43, and FA77 paint a picture (pun intended) far bleaker than what is experienced in practice, and whenever these lenses get mentioned in comparisons, the graphs are almost always misused, particularly from people who have never shot photos with them.
You have to look at the context of the argument.

We are comparing the lenses on Pentax's DSLR camera. If it was on film and/or FF dslr, the argument would have been different. If any at all.

For wider angle, personally, I am considering another lens. I stated above which lenses already. That may or may not be suitable for OP but that's another story. Moreover, images at higher resolutions are provided on the test site too. Looking and comparing images at 800x600 is pointless.

I just can't follow why one has to be religious about the lens. The 31mm f/1.9 is a great lens and performs better on film body. The new Limited editions designed and optimised for DSLR, performing better on DSLRs. And the tests show this. End of story.
07-16-2008, 10:36 AM   #75
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I remember an argument about which lens: Nikkor 85mm f/1.4 AF-D IF or Nikkor 85mm f/1.8 AF-D is better. Both are fantastic lenses for portraits. The f/1.4 is better optically but only marginally. However, it is twice as expensive. Mainly because it’s better built. There were some who claimed that the more expensive lens is optically better, and could produce creamier bokeh and more pleasing images. They could spot the difference between the images captured on the lenses easily. So someone decided to capture the images on both lenses on the same camera with the same settings, starting from f/2.0 and published high resolution images. Nobody could guess every image right. Not even half of the test images.

The point here is: if you think it’s obvious to you that the 31mm Ltd is optically a better lens judging just by looking at the images. Perhaps, your eyes are deceiving you and the higher price tag of the lens and its quality finishing creates a placebo effect.

Last edited by alexgn; 07-16-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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