[W.j.christy]

So i have been looking around for where I saw the information presented and can't find it so i will ask, wasn't there some change to the autofocus module hardware that made it impossible to get all the benefits of the updated AF algorithm used in the K-3II on the K-3? I know there was a firmware update that improved the AF of the K-3, however, I remember a comment made that there was a hardware change as well and that the full benefits wouldn't be realized on the camera.

Could this be why the K-3 was left out of the firmware update cycle for the new 55-300 and other upcoming lenses like it?


On separate but somewhat related note, when I checked Ricoh's website, I only saw firmware updates for the K-3 none for the k-3 II. Has the firmware on the K-3II never been updated? Or has the K-3 firmware always been used for both? (I am hoping that if K-3 is used as a catchall for both cameras that the firmware may still be updated to use these new style of lenses...)

Thoughts?

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Last edited by W.j.christy; 06-09-2016 at 06:06 AM.

[TER-OR]

The K3II firmware has not received an update, apparently it's fine. Remember it would have been tweaked as the K3, so pretty mature for the K3II. Don't try to update the K3II with the K3 firmware patch.

[boriscleto]

I don't thing the AF has anything to do with why the K-3 is being left out. The new K-70 still has the old SAFOX X module...

I think it's just Ricoh leaving legacy cameras owners in the position of having to buy a new camera to use future lenses. The K-3 II had to be included because it is still Ricoh's flagship APS-C. I'm sure there will be a Firmware update for the new lens when it is released in July.

[W.j.christy]

I don't thing the AF has anything to do with why the K-3 is being left out. The new K-70 still has the old SAFOX X module...

I think it's just Ricoh leaving legacy cameras owners in the position of having to buy a new camera to use future lenses. The K-3 II had to be included because it is still Ricoh's flagship APS-C. I'm sure there will be a Firmware update for the new lens when it is released in July.

If that's the case, that is pretty bad. I didn't make the connection between the Safox X module and the K-5. Hopefully they will change their minds, perhaps we just need to persuade them a little bit.....

[UncleVanya]

The AF system is only one part of the equation. The electronic aperture is the other. It is entirely possible that the problem for k-3 use relates to that factor. If they made a hardware change to allow for the electronic aperture it may be impossible to support this lens on older bodies. If not then someone needs to lead the effort to reverse engineer a firmware to address the shortfall.

[W.j.christy]

The AF system is only one part of the equation. The electronic aperture is the other. It is entirely possible that the problem for k-3 use relates to that factor. If they made a hardware change to allow for the electronic aperture it may be impossible to support this lens on older bodies. If not then someone needs to lead the effort to reverse engineer a firmware to address the shortfall.

True. I would still like to see the ability to use continuous focus in video mode with the 18-135 made available to the k-3. Seeing as how they are using an older autofocus module in the K-70 and KS-1 and KS-2, it shouldn't be a stretch to bring that capability to the K-3. Or so one would think.

[boriscleto]

The AF system is only one part of the equation. The electronic aperture is the other. It is entirely possible that the problem for k-3 use relates to that factor. If they made a hardware change to allow for the electronic aperture it may be impossible to support this lens on older bodies. If not then someone needs to lead the effort to reverse engineer a firmware to address the shortfall.

What hardware change? The KAF2 mount is the KAF2 mount. Aperture data is already shared between camera and lens, and power is supplied through the PZ/SDM contacts.

Ricoh is simply cutting off discontinued cameras.

[UncleVanya]

What hardware change? The KAF2 mount is the KAF2 mount. Aperture data is already shared between camera and lens, and power is supplied through the PZ/SDM contacts.

Ricoh is simply cutting off discontinued cameras.

You can speculate but you can't be sure some internal change hasn't been made that has no external visibility. I said IF. I also trust that Pentax would prefer to sell lenses rather than cripple a body arbitrarily. The lens in question isn't likely to drive a k3 user to upgrade but might be a nice lens to use for some if it worked.
The point is I have trust that the economics are driving this not a nefarious plot. Either it costs too much to port the code or there are hardware dependencies or the company decided to sell out the loyal buyers it just rewarded with the K-1 that made a big deal out of compatibility of legacy glass on this new camera. Granted that compatibility is in one direction - but so what? I can enjoy my k-3 for a long time. I wish it had all the features of the k3ii, but that's life. Bodies tend to be obsoleted over time. I will eventually buy a new body.

[Doundounba]

What hardware change? The KAF2 mount is the KAF2 mount. Aperture data is already shared between camera and lens, and power is supplied through the PZ/SDM contacts.

Unless I am mistaken, up to KAF3, the lens electronics don't know the shooting aperture. Aperture data capabilities of the lens are sent unidirectionally from the lens to the body. Right?

Ricoh is simply cutting off discontinued cameras.

Well, that's certainly a possibility. But it is not impossible that they've put new hardware on the camera boards to send shooting aperture data to the lens using the existing pins. It might be all software, but there might be hardware too...

[W.j.christy]

What hardware change? The KAF2 mount is the KAF2 mount. Aperture data is already shared between camera and lens, and power is supplied through the PZ/SDM contacts.

Ricoh is simply cutting off discontinued cameras.

I certainly hope that they aren't just cutting people off, I am with Uncle Vanya in believing there is some hardware in the electronics of the camera body that makes its impossible to update the K-3 to work with the electronic aperture. Considering the small (relative to the other two makers) following that pentax has is what has kept them alive and drove them to continue to innovate, I would hope they are not abandoning their customer base with older cameras....

[boriscleto]

Unless I am mistaken, up to KAF3, the lens electronics don't know the shooting aperture. Aperture data capabilities of the lens are sent unidirectionally from the lens to the body. Right?

KAF2 communicates MTF from the lens to the camera. But the body reads the aperture from the arrangement of the contacts. This has been the case since KA in 1983. KAF added a data pin to the six pins of the KA. KAF2 added the PZ power contacts. KAF3 is just KAF2 without the screw drive.

We haven't seen a picture of the contacts on the new lens, but I would be willing to make a wager that it still communicates aperture the same way.

[W.j.christy]

KAF2 communicates MTF from the lens to the camera. But the body reads the aperture from the arrangement of the contacts. This has been the case since KA in 1983. KAF added a data pin to the six pins of the KA. KAF2 added the PZ power contacts. KAF3 is just KAF2 without the screw drive.

We haven't seen a picture of the contacts on the new lens, but I would be willing to make a wager that it still communicates aperture the same way.

There is an article on the home page that has pictures of the mount on the lens. That may help with your argument.

[Doundounba]

KAF2 communicates MTF from the lens to the camera.

Right, that's my understanding as well. But, AFAICT, there's no communication for aperture in the other direction, right? The camera doesn't tell the lens electronics about what aperture is being used for a given shot, right? Because that is what is new here. The camera tells the lens what is the shooting aperture, and the lens is responsible for closing the iris appropriately for the shot. In KAF3, the camera physically moves the aperture lever by the appropriate amount, and the lens just needs a spring because its only responsibility is re-opening the iris after the shot, right?

If all this is correct, it means that there needs to be new communication going from the camera to the lens no? If there are new voltages that need to be set on the camera-side mount pins, then that possibly requires new hardware (even if the pins look the same)...

[boriscleto]

Right, that's my understanding as well. But, AFAICT, there's no communication for aperture in the other direction, right? The camera doesn't tell the lens electronics about what aperture is being used for a given shot, right? Because that is what is new here. The camera tells the lens what is the shooting aperture, and the lens is responsible for closing the iris appropriately for the shot. In KAF3, the camera physically moves the aperture lever by the appropriate amount, and the lens just needs a spring because its only responsibility is re-opening the iris after the shot, right?

If all this is correct, it means that there needs to be new communication going from the camera to the lens no? If there are new voltages that need to be set on the camera-side mount pins, then that possibly requires new hardware (even if the pins look the same)...

Why would the pins on the camera have to be changed? There is a serial data pin for the camera and lens to communicate with each other. Aperture set on the camera would be communicated to the CPU on the lens which controls the aperture motor.

[Doundounba]

There is a serial data pin for the camera and lens to communicate with each other. Aperture set on the camera would be communicated to the CPU on the lens which controls the aperture motor.

If the hardware controlling that pin on the camera-side is capable of bi-directional communication (and not just receiving info), then you're certainly correct - it's just a software update to support KAF4.