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08-18-2016, 08:32 AM   #16
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there is for sure a lot to answer
Thank you all for your advices!
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Pixelshift feature only worth it on tripod. This isn't especially light or travel friendly. While pixelshift can bring a lot when you take your time to shot on tripod, in particular if you plan to print in 30x40" or more. For day to day use, I think it is more a gimmick for most than a real useful feature. It would not apply for familly shots or travel except if you also plan to bring in the tripod and have lot of time to nail the perfect shot, setup the tripod etc. Astrotracer also require a tripod and to really plan you shots. If you are not an astro photography fan you may end up use it 2-3 time over the whole life span of your camera.
I am an astro photography fan, even if it's hard I'll shoot a lot of those kind of photos (noise pollution all around me)... But anyway... I have a motorized slider + head and a tripod (which I build just for the sake of learn in this area (electronics, programming, soldering and astrophotography)) to use in these occasions so, even if they are not killer features, they are highly welcome ^_^

Also, no plan to print anything for this moment... Just store it in some HDDs (redundancy)

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Yes and very easy. For example DxO does it by default so that just a click on the raw processor. Depending of the software that may be different.
Thank you for giving these examples (Flickr too). Highly appreciated

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I started with zoom and the good thing is with a single zoom (for me was 17-70 f/4) you can do most of your photography. No lens swap, no much to buy. it is practical.

If you don't know really if you'll like photography, if you want primes or zooms etc, you could simply start with an all in one kit lens. Perfectly fine for travel or anything outdoor and not that expensive like the 18-135 or the 16-85. At worst add a cheap prime for low light (DA35 f/2.4, DA50 f/1.8) and that let you discover both world (primes vs zooms) and discover what are the focal length you really want as a still shooter.
QuoteOriginally posted by anu l Quote
have you considered fast primes, also have you considered fast constant aperture zooms,
the fast 16-50 or 17-50 f/2.8 zooms although isnt as versatile zoom, is very good for Out of focus backgrounds, plus work better in low light & night photography. In my opinion they have a higher artistic value.
the tamron goes as cheap as 200-250$, the sigma is better built, slightly expensive, the Pentax is most expensive but comes with WR.
for more telephoto the 55-300 is the best lens (probably the best among all Canon, Nikon & Pentax thanks to it's great performance at the telephoto end)
Originally my plan was to buy a Canon 70D + Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 + Canon 55-300... Then those Sigma came out (18-35&50-100) and I felt in love instantly... K-3 was still too much pricey for my need and K-5 IIs not up to my need (back in the days when I was seeking also for a second camera for videos)... Then K-70 came out, and my interest in Pentax rise again. Too bad for still that SAFOX 11 and those 77 segments for expositions :/

But now that you're reminding me, probably it's a better choice, so I can learn what I need and begin to understand my shooting preferences...

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
You look after 18-35 f/1.8 and 50-100 f/2. The lenses are huge and expensive and one of theses don't exist in K-mount. Apparently very fast lenses have quite high value for you. But if you look enough in your own local market, you'll be able to find an FF for something like 1000€/$ so only 300€ more. You'd be able to put sigma/tamron f/2.8 lenses on it for a very low price. For example the tamron 28-75 and tamron 70-200. In term of deph of field, low light gathering or even size/weight that is quite similar. In term of price, that is also similar. K3-II + 18-35 + 55-300 + 8-16 = 2400€. Here D610 + tamron 28-75 + tamron 70-200 + sigma 12-24 = 2600€. But the latter proposition would bring more quality overall.
(...)
For me you are really in the case where FF does make lot of sense. The size argument doesn't hold when you plan to buy the huge behemoh that are the 18-35 and 50-100.
It may be my best choice but unfortunatelly for price and fear of thieft, I tend to don't look to FF... Too much big as you said
I'm a tall and fairly fit guy, but still, I think I won't enjoy any of my travel if I bring with me those big body for fearing on being to much noticed... K-70 is more in my style (but not up to my standard in autofocusing and exposure metering as you said)... Probably I may also have to reconsider to bring a 18-35 with me while traveling... Now looking seriously also to Pentax 16-85 and/or Sigma 17-50... Thanks

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The 10-17 is very different than a 8-16. There more into the frame at 17mm on that 10-17 than on the 8-16 at 8mm. The Pentax is required if you need 120-180° angle of view because it is the only lens on the market to offer a fisheyes zoom. That being said defished pictures are washed on the border/corners and there no much reason to buy a fisheye if you goal is rectilinear.
QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
I have the 10-17, I don't use it that often but there is no substitute for a fisheye. At 10mm it's truely fishy. At 17, it's an UWA lens.

I have used the 8-16 and its perspective is much different. It tends to isolate subjects in its foreframe, and "push" everything else away. Really, it's amazing to see. For landscape, if you have a horizontal anchor like a river, the horizon, a road, the eye understands this lens. If you lack that anchor, the image looks very distorted - I think the brain is focusing on the center and the image looks like what we see in our mind. The lens is big, though, and has a reputation for fragility. The 10-17 is tiny in comparison.

You will find both lenses used in the Marketplace occasionally. Set your keywords and keep an eye open.
QuoteOriginally posted by krazykat Quote
Sigma 8-16 Horizontal Angle of View @ 8mm = 114.5 degrees
Tamron 10-24 AoV @ 10mm = 98.28 degrees
Sigma 10-20 AoV @ 10mm = 102.4 degrees

If anything, Tamrons 10mm lines up with other lens's 11mm.

I've taken the Sigma 8-16 travelling many times and never had a problem with the heft. The added bonus is it's sharper in the corners wide open than other comparable ultra wide zooms are stopped down.
Two days ago this review came out...
Based on your statement, this review and what I think I will be my subjects and styling, I'm now fairly sure I'll buy a Sigma 8-16
Plus, this Pentax/Tokina 10-17 doesn't seems to stand good against Sigma 8-16 :/
If I'll ever want to shoot with a fish-eye... Maybe I'll look to Samyang's 8mm/12mm... This 10-17mm doesn't very seem to be up to what I seek in a lens (sharpness and color fringing mainly)

Or maybe it was just a bad copy reviewed by Christopher? It's not irony, I'm asking seriously here

QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
You will find both lenses used in the Marketplace occasionally. Set your keywords and keep an eye open.
I have already started to keep an eye open
Hope I'll find something interesting after Photokina in Europe region ^_^


Last edited by Sasha; 08-18-2016 at 08:46 AM.
08-18-2016, 09:34 AM - 1 Like   #17
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Remember, the 8-16 is NOT a fisheye. It's rectilinear. You will need to remember your horizon and levels even more than with a Fisheye if you do landscape, or the image will look distorted. You can't really make a direct comparison beyond the UWA aspects of both. At 17 and 16mm these lenses actually produce images which aren't that far apart (except for the circular aspect of a fisheye). At their wide ends, they are quite different.

I think the 10-17 will suffer from some fringing, as will many wide-angle lenses - there is a LOT of light, and it's being bent at an extreme angle. You will need to manage that in high contrast environments. I'm sure at 8mm the Sigma will do the same. 'Tis the nature of the UWA beasts.
08-18-2016, 12:24 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sasha Quote
Thank you all for your advices!
You're welcome !

QuoteOriginally posted by Sasha Quote
I am an astro photography fan, even if it's hard I'll shoot a lot of those kind of photos (noise pollution all around me)... But anyway... I have a motorized slider + head and a tripod (which I build just for the sake of learn in this area (electronics, programming, soldering and astrophotography)) to use in these occasions so, even if they are not killer features, they are highly welcome ^_^

Also, no plan to print anything for this moment... Just store it in some HDDs (redundancy)
A motorized slider and head controled properly is much more powerfull than the astrotracer. The astro tracer is limited by SR mechanisn capacity so it is a few minutes max of shooting. Specialized gear can do much more than that like position itself in sky at the right place to target what you want and follow it.

I have a colleague that love that kind of stuff and she explained me that basically she can control her motorized head from her phone after calibration and so target whatever star/planet she want.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sasha Quote
It may be my best choice but unfortunatelly for price and fear of thieft, I tend to don't look to FF... Too much big as you said

I'm a tall and fairly fit guy, but still, I think I won't enjoy any of my travel if I bring with me those big body for fearing on being to much noticed... K-70 is more in my style (but not up to my standard in autofocusing and exposure metering as you said)... Probably I may also have to reconsider to bring a 18-35 with me while traveling... Now looking seriously also to Pentax 16-85 and/or Sigma 17-50... Thanks
FF and APSC bodies are almost the same size. You have big APSC bodies and small FF bodies. A K1 or D610 are almost same size as K3 for example. A 7D (APSC) and 6D (FF) are the same size again. Being a photographer what I can say to you is that what count for most people is the size lens + camera.

Lenses like the 18-35 and 50-100 are HUGE. Really HUGE. Anybody not a photographer looking at you will think you are a paparasi. People will notice you, behave less naturally and will complain they don't want to be on your photos. Security guys will consider you as a prof and thief too. I am serious. FF will not make a difference, the size of your lenses will.

Basically you can forget ALL pro quality zoom for FF and APSC if you don't want to look like a pro/paparazi and if you want something like. 18-35 f/1.8, 50-100 f/1.8 or 70-200 f/2.8 lenses are behemoh. Even 55-300 a consumer grade tele is really big for most people. You'll be noticed. That simply how it is.

With prime like the pentax limited serie, you'll look far less obvious and not like a pro because the lenses are small. A guy with an K1 and FA77 will be far less noticable than you with a K70 and a 18-35. BY FAR.

Would you take a Leica FF and associated primes, most people would think you have some consumer grade mirrorless (except for build quality) while you have indeed pretty high end FF gear... But that's expensive, count at least $10000 for something basic.


QuoteQuote:
Plus, this Pentax/Tokina 10-17 doesn't seems to stand good against Sigma 8-16 :/
They don't serve the same purpose and don't take the same photo. You can't do with a 8-16 what you can do with a 10-17 and the reverse is also true. Beside as you insisted on size/weight. The 8-16 is quite heavy and quite big already. Not as big as the 18-35, but quite noticable. And because it is very specialized lens you'll have at least one other lens with you at anytime. Think of it for when you travel...

To me you look like you want high quality gear... And want something small and light. That not that compatible, in particular for zooms. To travel light, you'll want something like the 18-135.

Maybe you should separate you gear by need...

Last edited by Nicolas06; 08-18-2016 at 12:30 PM.
08-18-2016, 01:11 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote

Maybe you should separate you gear by need...
This is how we need to approach gear purchases. What do you want to do, and how much do you want to carry.

Want to be unobtrusive? Get the pancake lenses. The IQ is great and they're tiny. They make the DSLR look like a P&S.

08-18-2016, 05:07 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
Want to be unobtrusive? Get the pancake lenses. The IQ is great and they're tiny. They make the DSLR look like a P&S.
+1, I have the 21mm LTD, and the 40mm LTD, but the DA 40mm XS lives on my K-5 for weeks, very versatile, always produces great images, and it's compactness really does make it easy to carry around, it is my favorite lens.
08-19-2016, 07:34 AM - 1 Like   #21
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Well, I am Nicolas06' father and I am also a Pentax guy.

I have several zoom and primes, but my most used lens on K30 from 2014 to 2016 and now on K3 is DA 18-135.

It is nor the best lens you may buy but it is the most versatile when you want to travel light or not to be noticed as "the guy with a DSLR and a big lens".

At the wide end, it is not that bigger than the kit DA18-55. It is good for an entry level zoom from 18 to 70, very sharp in the center, but has soft corners at both 18mm and from 80 to 135, where it is better when shooting landscapes or architecture to close the aperture at f8/f11 (soft corners dont matter for portrait or action, as your subject will be in the center and the corners out of focus).
I often take this lens alone for travel, as it covers almost 90% of my needs. Some samples on flickr, link in my signature.

I dont have DA17-85, but I have DA17-70 f4, which is almost same size and weight, and I believe close to DA17-85 as regards IQ.
DA17-70 is a nice lens, already sharp fully open, but much bigger than DA18-135 (and heavier too, but the size bother me more than the weight). Better IQ, wider when zoomed out, but I miss the long end.

To sum it up, when going all day sightseeing or hikink with DSLR in my shoulder bag, I get more pleasure and less tired with DA 18-135, I dont need to shange lenses, and, for almost all scenes I dont really miss the extra IQ.

Shooting primes is another story. For me, it is when photography is my priority. High end primes like the DA limited (I have the 15, 21, 70), or even the cheap DA 35 f2.4, or my 20 years old FA50 f1.7 deliver much better pictures, it is something that cannot be measured by sharpness, acutance, distorsion and other automatic tests.
But, save for the two "plastic wonder" DA35 f2.4 and DA50 f1.8, a nice set of primes cost a lot of money, here in France the DA limited are around 500 € each new, and the legendary FA limited are much more expensive.
I like their unique rendering, but I hate changing lenses outside, as dust will gather on sensor. The dedicated piezo lens cleaning feature on K3 is much more efficient than on K30, which uses the shake reduction feature. It is worth checking which feature has been implemented in K70 and K-S2.

My 2cts advice is to buy K3 or K3-II with DA18-135, and maybe one of the "plastic wonder" DA35 or DA50. Then learn how to use your camera and post processing software, go shooting and, after one or two years, you will get a much better idea of what will suit you best.
K-S2 or K70 are to be considered only if tilt and swivel LCD or a lighter body is important for you.
08-19-2016, 08:29 AM   #22
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The 18-135 is nice, and the motorized focus is a pleasure to use. Plus, it's my go-to for inclement weather.

08-24-2016, 02:07 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
A motorized slider and head controled properly is much more powerfull than the astrotracer. The astro tracer is limited by SR mechanisn capacity so it is a few minutes max of shooting. Specialized gear can do much more than that like position itself in sky at the right place to target what you want and follow it.

I have a colleague that love that kind of stuff and she explained me that basically she can control her motorized head from her phone after calibration and so target whatever star/planet she want.
Mine is based on Arduino Mega and a Adafruit 2.8" TFT screen... I should add compatibility with Stellarium or something similar... Even if, with this software, I have to carry a laptop and things became impraticable... But maybe other way of doing this exists and further investigation is needed

BTW, Astrotracer for me would come handy just to take photos with longer exposure and without tails... Then, I would like to left composition/targetting to me...
But anyway, it will be difficult I'll shot pictures valuable in a contest... So, nothing necessary and needed, but something nice to have for me

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
They don't serve the same purpose and don't take the same photo. You can't do with a 8-16 what you can do with a 10-17 and the reverse is also true. Beside as you insisted on size/weight. The 8-16 is quite heavy and quite big already. Not as big as the 18-35, but quite noticable. And because it is very specialized lens you'll have at least one other lens with you at anytime. Think of it for when you travel...

To me you look like you want high quality gear... And want something small and light. That not that compatible, in particular for zooms. To travel light, you'll want something like the 18-135.

Maybe you should separate you gear by need...
QuoteOriginally posted by TER-OR Quote
This is how we need to approach gear purchases. What do you want to do, and how much do you want to carry.

Want to be unobtrusive? Get the pancake lenses. The IQ is great and they're tiny. They make the DSLR look like a P&S.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Well, I am Nicolas06' father and I am also a Pentax guy.

I have several zoom and primes, but my most used lens on K30 from 2014 to 2016 and now on K3 is DA 18-135.

It is nor the best lens you may buy but it is the most versatile when you want to travel light or not to be noticed as "the guy with a DSLR and a big lens".

At the wide end, it is not that bigger than the kit DA18-55. It is good for an entry level zoom from 18 to 70, very sharp in the center, but has soft corners at both 18mm and from 80 to 135, where it is better when shooting landscapes or architecture to close the aperture at f8/f11 (soft corners dont matter for portrait or action, as your subject will be in the center and the corners out of focus).
I often take this lens alone for travel, as it covers almost 90% of my needs. Some samples on flickr, link in my signature.

I dont have DA17-85, but I have DA17-70 f4, which is almost same size and weight, and I believe close to DA17-85 as regards IQ.
DA17-70 is a nice lens, already sharp fully open, but much bigger than DA18-135 (and heavier too, but the size bother me more than the weight). Better IQ, wider when zoomed out, but I miss the long end.

To sum it up, when going all day sightseeing or hikink with DSLR in my shoulder bag, I get more pleasure and less tired with DA 18-135, I dont need to shange lenses, and, for almost all scenes I dont really miss the extra IQ.
Uhm, I start to understand the usefulness of primes... I love Sigma 18-35 and 50-100 because, at the end, they'll cost me a lot less than a similar set of primes, having also enough picture quality to satisfy me... But in the end, you made me think it will hard I'll carry them with me while travelling... Now, that 18-135 is the least interesting for me compared to a 16-85 or that 17-70... But by listening to your point, it will be also what I truly need... This and a wide angle lens, and I may able to cover all focal lenght I need to shot pictures I like to shoot... Saying this, because:

QuoteOriginally posted by Tatouzou Quote
Shooting primes is another story. For me, it is when photography is my priority. High end primes like the DA limited (I have the 15, 21, 70), or even the cheap DA 35 f2.4, or my 20 years old FA50 f1.7 deliver much better pictures, it is something that cannot be measured by sharpness, acutance, distorsion and other automatic tests.
But, save for the two "plastic wonder" DA35 f2.4 and DA50 f1.8, a nice set of primes cost a lot of money, here in France the DA limited are around 500 € each new, and the legendary FA limited are much more expensive.

My 2cts advice is to buy K3 or K3-II with DA18-135, and maybe one of the "plastic wonder" DA35 or DA50. Then learn how to use your camera and post processing software, go shooting and, after one or two years, you will get a much better idea of what will suit you best.
experience (yours and experencies of all of you that take time to answer me) speaks to itself and that's probably the best way of doing witthout kill my wallet
With my HC-x900 I hardly ever use zoom, because images get darker and it's harder to have firm sequences with a lot of zoom.... So I don't really know what really mean those number linked to those focal lenght...

I'll follow your advice then and buy just a 16-85 or a 18-135 (in bundle, cheaper, maybe better also for this reason) with a K-3 II... Then will see
Thanks to you all! If you have more advice to give me, they will be welcome for sure ^_^
Now, with a better understanding of the matter, let's just wait for Photokina and hope Pentax will release one or two more lenses (and a crop body too)
08-24-2016, 06:08 AM - 1 Like   #24
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If you have a nice mid-range zoom you may go for the 16-85 over the 16-135. I haven't used the former, only the latter, so can't directly compare. It's supposed to be quite nice, though. The 16-135 is useful to the end of its zoom, which is nice. I'll take it on excursions when I don't know what I'll be shooting.

Once you get a feel for the FL you like the most you can investigate the primes. Get something that fits your style.
08-24-2016, 11:38 AM - 1 Like   #25
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Between 16-85 and 18-135, the choice depend a lot on the wished range. A 16-85 may allows you to not get an UWA because 16mm is already quite wide and overall the quality is better. 85mm on APSC is enough for many case and you can still crop a bit. To me the 16 vs 18mm will make a noticable difference in many case.

The 18-135 is cheaper, offered in combo with quite interresting prices at time, it is also smaller/lighter. And the 135mm give more reach if you care of that. If you never plan for zoo/wildlife, you may never need more than 135mm really so it can save you from buying a 55-300.

Me I would be more for 16-85, but that because I don't want to get all the time an UWA zoom on top and that with the 16-85 I know I'll be able to do 95% of the shoots I want, the remaining covered by a 55-300 (that often I'll not take with me as it is rather specialized) and 1-2 primes. Would be FA31 and FA77 for me, but just DA35 f/2.4 and DA50 f/1.8 would be quite nice. You need them for the wide appertures (low light and subject isolation).
08-25-2016, 03:11 AM   #26
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In the end, I agree with both of you...

If nothing interesting will be presented at Photokina, I'm quite sure I'll buy a K-3 II + 16-85... Seems a kit with this lens exists too at a marvellous price of 1175€ (web shop in Rome (where I live)), which I find to be a really good price for this combo... Maybe soon after I'll buy that 55-300 PLM... They are both new lenses so it will be difficult they will be upgraded in the near future and that extra 2mm in the short end may allow or may not allow me to slightly postpone the acquisition of a wider lenses... We'll see...

Actually, I hope the K-3 II will be upgraded at Photokina... Judging from test made by dpreview, at high ISO, it gets crushed a lot by the new K-70! Pentax K-70 added to studio test scene
An upgrade I think, is very needed... Don't know if they'll upgrade also the K-5 II... But they are not too different in dimensions... Even if, because of that K-70, there is space for a K-5 III with focus and metering capabilities of a K-3 II and a K-3 III with focus and metering capabilities of a K-1 or even better... Both with upgraded sensors and high ISO performances... We'll see also here

One thing is definitevely sure... In a couple of months I'll need some help with postproducing software

Last edited by Sasha; 08-25-2016 at 03:19 AM.
08-25-2016, 10:44 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sasha Quote
Actually, I hope the K-3 II will be upgraded at Photokina... Judging from test made by dpreview, at high ISO, it gets crushed a lot by the new K-70! Pentax K-70 added to studio test scene
An upgrade I think, is very needed... Don't know if they'll upgrade also the K-5 II... But they are not too different in dimensions... Even if, because of that K-70, there is space for a K-5 III with focus and metering capabilities of a K-3 II and a K-3 III with focus and metering capabilities of a K-1 or even better... Both with upgraded sensors and high ISO performances... We'll see also here
K5-II upgrade seems very unlikely. Even D500 that optimized for high iso and sport has more than 16MP... A new flagship will be produced, and the most likely case is 24MP, it may be more than that, no less.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sasha Quote
One thing is definitevely sure... In a couple of months I'll need some help with postproducing software
Just ask when needed !
08-26-2016, 08:35 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
K5-II upgrade seems very unlikely. Even D500 that optimized for high iso and sport has more than 16MP... A new flagship will be produced, and the most likely case is 24MP, it may be more than that, no less.



Just ask when needed !
I thought the K-3 series was a natural successor to the K-5 series.... what's the truth??
08-26-2016, 02:27 PM   #29
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Pentax doesn't typically keep multiple lines alive like Cannikon does. They tend to move on and upgrade both lines in parallel, using the newer technologies.
08-27-2016, 01:13 AM   #30
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Ah I see... I thought/hope there was space for kind of low (if we can call that "low"), medium and high-end APS-C lines in Pentax with K-70, K-5 and K-3... Of course not with a 16 MPixel sensor in one of these lines as market seems to level to 20/24 MPixel sensors nowadays.... But I recognize it, probably it just me trying to find something which I don't like in Pentax
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