"Pixel Shift" Makes Cheaper Lenses As Good As Expensive Lenses (almost)

**arnold** · 09-19-2016, 07:52 PM

I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera.

Roadrunnerdeluxe · 09-19-2016, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by MJSfoto1956

I can report that the combination of pixel shift + post processing in piccure+ will give you images that will simply blow you (and your clients) away. You can try piccure+ for free for 30 days. Warning: it is slow as all get out. But I find the processing worth doing for all my "keepers".

YMMV

Michael

I second that! Piccure is pretty amazing, yet CPU intensive at high quality settings.

stevebrot · 09-19-2016, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by arnold

I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera.

Are you sure that Elements 8 supports merge processing for pixel shift DNG? I suspect not. In that case Elements will extract bundled exposure #1 and process that image.

Steve

**rechmbrs** · 09-19-2016, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by arnold

I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera.

You must use either Pentax DCU 5.6.1 or Adobe ACR 9.6.1 to properly composite the DNG file. Elements won't do it. What camera?
RONC

**arnold** · 09-19-2016, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by rechmbrs

You must use either Pentax DCU 5.6.1 or Adobe ACR 9.6.1 to properly composite the DNG file. Elements won't do it. What camera?
RONC

Pentax K1. The Pentax software is not user friendly, and I don't know what ACR 9.6.1 refers to. Seems my suspicions were right. Elements 8 can't handle DNG pixel shift. The camera JPEG pixel shift was not as good as a standard JPEG, but maybe that is also an Elements 8 problem.

**rechmbrs** · 09-19-2016, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by arnold

Pentax K1. The Pentax software is not user friendly, and I don't know what ACR 9.6.1 refers to. Seems my suspicions were right. Elements 8 can't handle DNG pixel shift. The camera JPEG pixel shift was not as good as a standard JPEG, but maybe that is also an Elements 8 problem.

ACR is Adobe Camera Raw which is part of Photoshop or Lightroom.
I think the jpg should be processed by Elements ok but you must back off some on sharpening.
I can run ACR on the DNG if you would like and pass a file back to you if you wish. Send me a PM with a Dropbox or other storage location for the file.
RONC

**arnold** · 09-19-2016, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by rechmbrs

ACR is Adobe Camera Raw which is part of Photoshop or Lightroom.
I think the jpg should be processed by Elements ok but you must back off some on sharpening.
I can run ACR on the DNG if you would like and pass a file back to you if you wish. Send me a PM with a Dropbox or other storage location for the file.
RONC

Thanks for the offer. I still don't know why the pix shift jpg from the camera was worse than the plain jpg. I will put the DNG on Flicker.and post the link here with an edit, for all to see. Look forward to see what comes out.
Edit: Flicker doesn't do DNG. Here is a Google link that took 25 minutes to load!!
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzHQJ3JAJyxEWlowZGU5MU9vOUE
Here is a normal JPG of the scene for comparison, with only levels and sharpness adjusted.

Hill about 7 miles distant. A70-210 used

Last edited by arnold; 09-19-2016 at 11:57 PM.

**rechmbrs** · 09-19-2016, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by arnold

Thanks for the offer. I still don't know why the pix shift jpg from the camera was worse than the plain jpg. I will put the DNG on Flicker.and post the link here with an edit, for all to see. Look forward to see what comes out.

You could put the jpg up also.
RONC

MJKoski · 09-20-2016, 12:18 AM

Using 200mm lens with PS requires insanely stable setup. Even slight wind can mess up the exposure. Much more so with short exposure times.

**arnold** · 09-20-2016, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by rechmbrs

You could put the jpg up also.
RONC

All true, and I did use a stable tripod with the 2 second delay. Clearly Pix S. is not for casual use.

This is the DNG JPEG
[IMG]

[/IMG]
[/url][/IMG]

**rechmbrs** · 09-20-2016, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by arnold

All true, and I did use a stable tripod with the 2 second delay. Clearly Pix S. is not for casual use.

This is the DNG JPEG
[/url][/IMG]
[/url][/IMG]

I'm waiting on your response to Google for me to get the DNG.

JPG difference seems to me to be haze on PSR which your levels might have fixed on other if it were there.

RONC

**arnold** · 09-20-2016, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by rechmbrs

I'm waiting on your response to Google for me to get the DNG.

JPG difference seems to me to be haze on PSR which your levels might have fixed on other if it were there.

RONC

IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzHQJ3JAJyxEWlowZGU5MU9vOUE/view?usp=sharing
This is the sharing link. Don't know what else I can do.
The jpeg off the DNG could not be brought to the standard of the first plain shot. The JPEG engine seems hard to beat.

**rechmbrs** · 09-20-2016, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by arnold

IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive

IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive
This is the sharing link. Don't know what else I can do.
The jpeg off the DNG could not be brought to the standard of the first plain shot. The JPEG engine seems hard to beat.

I just finished the download.

I think you will be surprised.

RONC

**rechmbrs** · 09-20-2016, 01:00 PM

Arnold,
After reviewing the DNG file and the Pixel Shift Resolution output - with and without Motion Compensation - I find that this exhibits motion of all sorts and is not usable in PSR. There is vehicle motion which is pretty well handled my the motion compensation. There is foilage motion that I feel is not a great problem and finally there is a very large amount of camera movement. The camera motion happens to a large extent between the shots and there is lateral, rotational and vertical motion. In truth the motion resembles my attempts at hand holding the camera for PSR but wind blowing the camera or movement around the camera by vehicles or people is enough to cause what is exhibited.

When PSR happens in the K-1, the sensor moves only about 0.0002 inch or 5 microns per pixel shift. How much wind abeam to the camera and lens is necessary to move/rotate the setup? Not much I'm afraid.

Your comments earlier are correct that PSR is finicky. But if you knew what you know now about the method would you attack the problems differently? Might you use your vehicle, not running, as a wind break? Was it a tripod setup to do most to dampen induced motion? Different tripod? These are the the same things we think about with long exposure shooting.

Pixel Shift is not magic!
RONC

MJKoski · 09-20-2016, 01:29 PM

Use ND filters to bring up exposure times. I found it works very nicely in bad conditions. But still I always keep my tripod low when doing PS work. It weights about 5kg plus ballhead (Benro B-4).

Short exposure times are most critical with PS.

Always use 2sec timer to start the exposure. Preferably with remote.

09-19-2016, 08:54 PM	#19
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	PSR Originally posted by arnold I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera. You must use either Pentax DCU 5.6.1 or Adobe ACR 9.6.1 to properly composite the DNG file. Elements won't do it. What camera? RONC

09-20-2016, 01:42 AM	#25
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,293	Originally posted by rechmbrs You could put the jpg up also. RONC All true, and I did use a stable tripod with the 2 second delay. Clearly Pix S. is not for casual use. This is the DNG JPEG [IMG][/IMG] [/url][/IMG]

09-20-2016, 01:00 PM	#29
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Excellent example of Pixel Shift Resolution mode's GOTCHAs Arnold, After reviewing the DNG file and the Pixel Shift Resolution output - with and without Motion Compensation - I find that this exhibits motion of all sorts and is not usable in PSR. There is vehicle motion which is pretty well handled my the motion compensation. There is foilage motion that I feel is not a great problem and finally there is a very large amount of camera movement. The camera motion happens to a large extent between the shots and there is lateral, rotational and vertical motion. In truth the motion resembles my attempts at hand holding the camera for PSR but wind blowing the camera or movement around the camera by vehicles or people is enough to cause what is exhibited. When PSR happens in the K-1, the sensor moves only about 0.0002 inch or 5 microns per pixel shift. How much wind abeam to the camera and lens is necessary to move/rotate the setup? Not much I'm afraid. Your comments earlier are correct that PSR is finicky. But if you knew what you know now about the method would you attack the problems differently? Might you use your vehicle, not running, as a wind break? Was it a tripod setup to do most to dampen induced motion? Different tripod? These are the the same things we think about with long exposure shooting. Pixel Shift is not magic! RONC

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09-19-2016, 07:52 PM	#16
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,293	I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera.

09-19-2016, 08:34 PM	#17
Roadrunnerdeluxe Forum Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 97	Originally posted by MJSfoto1956 I can report that the combination of pixel shift + post processing in piccure+ will give you images that will simply blow you (and your clients) away. You can try piccure+ for free for 30 days. Warning: it is slow as all get out. But I find the processing worth doing for all my "keepers". YMMV Michael I second that! Piccure is pretty amazing, yet CPU intensive at high quality settings.

09-19-2016, 08:48 PM	#18
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by arnold I tried P.S. on a tripod, 2 sec delay and DNG. with an M200mm. The results were worse than another plain JPEG straight from the camera, which was taken at the same time. I have a simple Elements 8 PP program, so I wonder if it has trouble with Pixel shift. The PS jpeg was not much better straight out camera. Are you sure that Elements 8 supports merge processing for pixel shift DNG? I suspect not. In that case Elements will extract bundled exposure #1 and process that image. Steve

09-19-2016, 09:52 PM	#20
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,293	Originally posted by rechmbrs You must use either Pentax DCU 5.6.1 or Adobe ACR 9.6.1 to properly composite the DNG file. Elements won't do it. What camera? RONC Pentax K1. The Pentax software is not user friendly, and I don't know what ACR 9.6.1 refers to. Seems my suspicions were right. Elements 8 can't handle DNG pixel shift. The camera JPEG pixel shift was not as good as a standard JPEG, but maybe that is also an Elements 8 problem.

09-19-2016, 10:52 PM	#21
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Originally posted by arnold Pentax K1. The Pentax software is not user friendly, and I don't know what ACR 9.6.1 refers to. Seems my suspicions were right. Elements 8 can't handle DNG pixel shift. The camera JPEG pixel shift was not as good as a standard JPEG, but maybe that is also an Elements 8 problem. ACR is Adobe Camera Raw which is part of Photoshop or Lightroom. I think the jpg should be processed by Elements ok but you must back off some on sharpening. I can run ACR on the DNG if you would like and pass a file back to you if you wish. Send me a PM with a Dropbox or other storage location for the file. RONC

09-19-2016, 11:12 PM	#22
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,293	Originally posted by rechmbrs ACR is Adobe Camera Raw which is part of Photoshop or Lightroom. I think the jpg should be processed by Elements ok but you must back off some on sharpening. I can run ACR on the DNG if you would like and pass a file back to you if you wish. Send me a PM with a Dropbox or other storage location for the file. RONC Thanks for the offer. I still don't know why the pix shift jpg from the camera was worse than the plain jpg. I will put the DNG on Flicker.and post the link here with an edit, for all to see. Look forward to see what comes out. Edit: Flicker doesn't do DNG. Here is a Google link that took 25 minutes to load!! https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzHQJ3JAJyxEWlowZGU5MU9vOUE Here is a normal JPG of the scene for comparison, with only levels and sharpness adjusted. Hill about 7 miles distant. A70-210 used Last edited by arnold; 09-19-2016 at 11:57 PM.

09-19-2016, 11:37 PM	#23
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Originally posted by arnold Thanks for the offer. I still don't know why the pix shift jpg from the camera was worse than the plain jpg. I will put the DNG on Flicker.and post the link here with an edit, for all to see. Look forward to see what comes out. You could put the jpg up also. RONC

09-20-2016, 12:18 AM	#24
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Using 200mm lens with PS requires insanely stable setup. Even slight wind can mess up the exposure. Much more so with short exposure times.

09-20-2016, 03:14 AM	#26
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Originally posted by arnold All true, and I did use a stable tripod with the 2 second delay. Clearly Pix S. is not for casual use. This is the DNG JPEG [/url][/IMG] [/url][/IMG] I'm waiting on your response to Google for me to get the DNG. JPG difference seems to me to be haze on PSR which your levels might have fixed on other if it were there. RONC

09-20-2016, 04:40 AM	#27
arnold Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,293	Originally posted by rechmbrs I'm waiting on your response to Google for me to get the DNG. JPG difference seems to me to be haze on PSR which your levels might have fixed on other if it were there. RONC IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzHQJ3JAJyxEWlowZGU5MU9vOUE/view?usp=sharing This is the sharing link. Don't know what else I can do. The jpeg off the DNG could not be brought to the standard of the first plain shot. The JPEG engine seems hard to beat.

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09-20-2016, 05:24 AM	#28
rechmbrs Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conroe, TX USA Posts: 423	Originally posted by arnold IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive IMGP0615.DNG - Google Drive This is the sharing link. Don't know what else I can do. The jpeg off the DNG could not be brought to the standard of the first plain shot. The JPEG engine seems hard to beat. I just finished the download. I think you will be surprised. RONC

09-20-2016, 01:29 PM	#30
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Use ND filters to bring up exposure times. I found it works very nicely in bad conditions. But still I always keep my tripod low when doing PS work. It weights about 5kg plus ballhead (Benro B-4). Short exposure times are most critical with PS. Always use 2sec timer to start the exposure. Preferably with remote.