Why Sigma, Samyang stopped introducing K mount lenses?

CarlJF · 09-20-2016, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

For what it's worth, Sigma has been dealing with the aperture "problem" for about over 30 years. They have a high level of expertise implementing the feature.

The problem isn't that they can't technically do it or doesn't have the expertise. It's just that since the whole industry has moved to electronic aperture mechanisms, it doesn't economically make sense in 2016 to design lenses to include this mechanical system and maintain a production line for these, only to satisfy the very small demand for K-mount lenses relative to all other mounts.

stevebrot · 09-20-2016, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by CarlJF

The problem isn't that they can't technically do it or doesn't have the expertise. It's just that since the whole industry has moved to electronic aperture mechanisms, it doesn't economically make sense in 2016 to design lenses to include this mechanical system and maintain a production line for these, only to satisfy the very small demand for K-mount lenses relative to all other mounts.

Based on what you said, it may be some time before Sigma offers a lens in KAF4. The installed user base is tiny compared to KAF2.

Steve

**boriscleto** · 09-20-2016, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by CarlJF

Hopefully, the introduction of KAF4 lenses may help make it easier for third party manufacturers.

KAF4 does nothing for third party manufacturers. Just more cost to reverse engineer a new technology (or cost to license).

~~Sigma doesn't make any E type lenses for F-mount, why would they for K-mount?~~ Until the new lenses announced yesterday...

**boriscleto** · 09-20-2016, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by hologram

The Sigma MC-111 is Sigma's general fix for Sony E-mount. I noticed that they started including the mc-111 with several of their lenses. Also brings up the price.

Not E-mount, Nikon E type F-mount lenses (electromagnetic diaphragm.)

What are E type lenses? | Nikon Knowledgebase

hologram · 09-20-2016, 01:14 PM

[quote=boriscleto;3778026]Not E-mount, Nikon E type F-mount lenses (electromagnetic diaphragm.)

Noted, however

I just checked it on the Sigma site on the MC-11 again and i quote. " Sony E-mount for Canon lens" and "Sony E-mount for Sigma lens" (35mm prime f1.4 art) as well as the 50mm m1.4 art. They said the same thing to me at Photokina. I am certain what i saw was an A7rII with the MC-11 on it and it's an E-mount camera. Also they did bring out the MC-11 Canon model after all.

stevebrot · 09-20-2016, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by boriscleto

KAF4 does nothing for third party manufacturers. Just more cost to reverse engineer a new technology

That and incredibly small market (K-1, K-3II, K-70, and K-S1/K-S2) at present.

Originally posted by boriscleto

(or cost to license)

Indications are such would be a first for Pentax. In the past, that has required product co-development and even then it is not clear whether any license was granted outside the scope of shared product.

Originally posted by boriscleto

Sigma doesn't make any E type lenses for F-mount, why would they for K-mount? Until the new lenses announced yesterday...

I was startled when I saw the announcement and I think it should give some indication how many years may pass before we see Sigma support for KAF4. E-type Nikon body support dates back to about 2008 with the D300 and has been added to most new Nikon dSLR bodies since then. The number of E-type lens in the Nikkor lineup continues to be small (eight at present, mostly super teles) with all being premium product.

Steve

**THoog** · 09-20-2016, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by hologram

No problem when i requested a Nikon conversion, but for pentax conversion i certainly got the "persona non grata" treatment.

Was it a lens that had been produced for K-mount? I know some folks were trying to get K-mount versions of lenses that were never produced in K-mount - Sigma doesn't have the parts to do that.

Originally posted by hologram

Secondly the Sigma MC-111 converter for Sony e-mount and apparently it's been slated for Canon as well. Why not for Pentax? the MC-111 is just an adapter to use Sigma SA mount lenses on other cameras. They don't even have to be the Sigma art series lenses either.

The Sigma SA-mount is all-electronic, and in fact uses the Canon EOS signal protocols for communication. All the MC-11 converter has to do is translate the Sony E-mount signals to/from the SA/EF-mount lens. For K-mount lenses (prior to KAF4), it would have to include a motor and linkages for aperture control. Unless you mean to mount Sigma SA/EF lenses on Pentax, which is an entirely different problem - even if they can now translate the signals to/from KAF4, the flange distance is too short, and would require corrective optics, reducing image quality.

hologram · 09-20-2016, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by THoog

Was it a lens that had been produced for K-mount? I know some folks were trying to get K-mount versions of lenses that were never produced in K-mount - Sigma doesn't have the parts to do that.

The Sigma SA-mount is all-electronic, and in fact uses the Canon EOS signal protocols for communication. All the MC-11 converter has to do is translate the Sony E-mount signals to/from the SA/EF-mount lens. For K-mount lenses, it would have to include a motor and linkages for aperture control. Unless you mean to mount Sigma SA/EF lenses on Pentax, which is an entirely different problem - even if they can now translate the signals to/from KAF4, the flange distance is too short, and would require corrective optics, reducing image quality.

First part answer: Yes it was otherwise i wouldn't have sent it in. Don't worry i checked first.

Second part answer: Debatable considering that i am using the sigma 18-35 f1.8 art on Pentax which isn't any less impressive than the MC-11 compatible lens models. Then you also have full manual mode which is odd because you have rokinon or samyag manual lenses that work just fine on Pentax. However still no way use SA mount on pentax in full or partial manual mode which is odd when you can still use 1970's lenses. If you follow, and if not i guess the easiest way to explain it to have the ability to use most of the adapted lens abilities and the rest you do yourself. Even now i have to micro adjust my K-1 or K-3 as the AF is always a little bit off and for things like portraits or landscapes i still manual focus. If i can get the lens good optics and minimal function i can't really complain, do the USB lens calibration once out of camera and that's it.

You are correct if you want the fast sports oriented functions of the lens and that is also evident with the latest Fuji and Panasonic cameras as well. I have 4 different camera brands which is kind of silly and all because of the lenses. Which is more than a little expensive especially in Canada. I can't even get the Sigma 150-600 f5.6 telephoto wildlife lens for pentax and it's not a fancy model either. Pentax itself doesn't have anything other than 150-450mm and from what i have seen the Sigma lens is sharper but the Pentax has better colour rendition. Just basic functions is all i need. Also just how much electronic AF refinement are you going to get out of a prime lens with only a few elements at best.

If i want the full features of my SA mount sigma lenses i stick them on my SD-1, problem solved. Performance wise there isn't any difference between the 18-35 f1.8 pentax k-mount and the 18-35 SA mount. Both cameras & lenses articulated at exactly the same rate.

No matter. Thanks for the input, i appreciated it.

**THoog** · 09-20-2016, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by hologram

Debatable considering that i am using the sigma 18-35 f1.8 art on Pentax which isn't any less impressive than the MC-11 compatible lens models.

I don't understand what is debatable. SA-mount has the same flange focal distance as Canon EF - 44mm - and K-mount is 45.46. In order for an SA- or EF- lens to focus to infinity on K-mount, the adapter would have to have corrective optics, which would act as a short teleconverter with some loss of IQ. This is not an issue for SA- or EF- lenses on the MC-11 because Sony E-mount has a shorter flange focal distance of 18mm; optically, the MC-11 is just an empty tube with no glass.

09-20-2016, 01:14 PM	#20
hologram Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 9	[quote=boriscleto;3778026]Not E-mount, Nikon E type F-mount lenses (electromagnetic diaphragm.) Noted, however I just checked it on the Sigma site on the MC-11 again and i quote. " Sony E-mount for Canon lens" and "Sony E-mount for Sigma lens" (35mm prime f1.4 art) as well as the 50mm m1.4 art. They said the same thing to me at Photokina. I am certain what i saw was an A7rII with the MC-11 on it and it's an E-mount camera. Also they did bring out the MC-11 Canon model after all. Last edited by hologram; 09-20-2016 at 01:33 PM.

09-20-2016, 01:33 PM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by boriscleto KAF4 does nothing for third party manufacturers. Just more cost to reverse engineer a new technology That and incredibly small market (K-1, K-3II, K-70, and K-S1/K-S2) at present. Originally posted by boriscleto (or cost to license) Indications are such would be a first for Pentax. In the past, that has required product co-development and even then it is not clear whether any license was granted outside the scope of shared product. Originally posted by boriscleto Sigma doesn't make any E type lenses for F-mount, why would they for K-mount? Until the new lenses announced yesterday... I was startled when I saw the announcement and I think it should give some indication how many years may pass before we see Sigma support for KAF4. E-type Nikon body support dates back to about 2008 with the D300 and has been added to most new Nikon dSLR bodies since then. The number of E-type lens in the Nikkor lineup continues to be small (eight at present, mostly super teles) with all being premium product. Steve Last edited by stevebrot; 09-20-2016 at 01:44 PM.

09-20-2016, 01:48 PM	#23
hologram Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 9	Originally posted by THoog Was it a lens that had been produced for K-mount? I know some folks were trying to get K-mount versions of lenses that were never produced in K-mount - Sigma doesn't have the parts to do that. The Sigma SA-mount is all-electronic, and in fact uses the Canon EOS signal protocols for communication. All the MC-11 converter has to do is translate the Sony E-mount signals to/from the SA/EF-mount lens. For K-mount lenses, it would have to include a motor and linkages for aperture control. Unless you mean to mount Sigma SA/EF lenses on Pentax, which is an entirely different problem - even if they can now translate the signals to/from KAF4, the flange distance is too short, and would require corrective optics, reducing image quality. First part answer: Yes it was otherwise i wouldn't have sent it in. Don't worry i checked first. Second part answer: Debatable considering that i am using the sigma 18-35 f1.8 art on Pentax which isn't any less impressive than the MC-11 compatible lens models. Then you also have full manual mode which is odd because you have rokinon or samyag manual lenses that work just fine on Pentax. However still no way use SA mount on pentax in full or partial manual mode which is odd when you can still use 1970's lenses. If you follow, and if not i guess the easiest way to explain it to have the ability to use most of the adapted lens abilities and the rest you do yourself. Even now i have to micro adjust my K-1 or K-3 as the AF is always a little bit off and for things like portraits or landscapes i still manual focus. If i can get the lens good optics and minimal function i can't really complain, do the USB lens calibration once out of camera and that's it. You are correct if you want the fast sports oriented functions of the lens and that is also evident with the latest Fuji and Panasonic cameras as well. I have 4 different camera brands which is kind of silly and all because of the lenses. Which is more than a little expensive especially in Canada. I can't even get the Sigma 150-600 f5.6 telephoto wildlife lens for pentax and it's not a fancy model either. Pentax itself doesn't have anything other than 150-450mm and from what i have seen the Sigma lens is sharper but the Pentax has better colour rendition. Just basic functions is all i need. Also just how much electronic AF refinement are you going to get out of a prime lens with only a few elements at best. If i want the full features of my SA mount sigma lenses i stick them on my SD-1, problem solved. Performance wise there isn't any difference between the 18-35 f1.8 pentax k-mount and the 18-35 SA mount. Both cameras & lenses articulated at exactly the same rate. No matter. Thanks for the input, i appreciated it. Last edited by hologram; 09-20-2016 at 02:47 PM.

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09-20-2016, 08:10 AM	#16
CarlJF Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,185	Originally posted by stevebrot For what it's worth, Sigma has been dealing with the aperture "problem" for about over 30 years. They have a high level of expertise implementing the feature. The problem isn't that they can't technically do it or doesn't have the expertise. It's just that since the whole industry has moved to electronic aperture mechanisms, it doesn't economically make sense in 2016 to design lenses to include this mechanical system and maintain a production line for these, only to satisfy the very small demand for K-mount lenses relative to all other mounts.

09-20-2016, 11:18 AM	#17
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by CarlJF The problem isn't that they can't technically do it or doesn't have the expertise. It's just that since the whole industry has moved to electronic aperture mechanisms, it doesn't economically make sense in 2016 to design lenses to include this mechanical system and maintain a production line for these, only to satisfy the very small demand for K-mount lenses relative to all other mounts. Based on what you said, it may be some time before Sigma offers a lens in KAF4. The installed user base is tiny compared to KAF2. Steve

09-20-2016, 12:47 PM	#18
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by CarlJF Hopefully, the introduction of KAF4 lenses may help make it easier for third party manufacturers. KAF4 does nothing for third party manufacturers. Just more cost to reverse engineer a new technology (or cost to license). ~~Sigma doesn't make any E type lenses for F-mount, why would they for K-mount?~~ Until the new lenses announced yesterday...

09-20-2016, 01:08 PM	#19
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by hologram The Sigma MC-111 is Sigma's general fix for Sony E-mount. I noticed that they started including the mc-111 with several of their lenses. Also brings up the price. Not E-mount, Nikon E type F-mount lenses (electromagnetic diaphragm.) What are E type lenses? \| Nikon Knowledgebase

09-20-2016, 01:39 PM	#22
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	Originally posted by hologram No problem when i requested a Nikon conversion, but for pentax conversion i certainly got the "persona non grata" treatment. Was it a lens that had been produced for K-mount? I know some folks were trying to get K-mount versions of lenses that were never produced in K-mount - Sigma doesn't have the parts to do that. Originally posted by hologram Secondly the Sigma MC-111 converter for Sony e-mount and apparently it's been slated for Canon as well. Why not for Pentax? the MC-111 is just an adapter to use Sigma SA mount lenses on other cameras. They don't even have to be the Sigma art series lenses either. The Sigma SA-mount is all-electronic, and in fact uses the Canon EOS signal protocols for communication. All the MC-11 converter has to do is translate the Sony E-mount signals to/from the SA/EF-mount lens. For K-mount lenses (prior to KAF4), it would have to include a motor and linkages for aperture control. Unless you mean to mount Sigma SA/EF lenses on Pentax, which is an entirely different problem - even if they can now translate the signals to/from KAF4, the flange distance is too short, and would require corrective optics, reducing image quality.

09-20-2016, 03:39 PM	#24
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	Originally posted by hologram Debatable considering that i am using the sigma 18-35 f1.8 art on Pentax which isn't any less impressive than the MC-11 compatible lens models. I don't understand what is debatable. SA-mount has the same flange focal distance as Canon EF - 44mm - and K-mount is 45.46. In order for an SA- or EF- lens to focus to infinity on K-mount, the adapter would have to have corrective optics, which would act as a short teleconverter with some loss of IQ. This is not an issue for SA- or EF- lenses on the MC-11 because Sony E-mount has a shorter flange focal distance of 18mm; optically, the MC-11 is just an empty tube with no glass.