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02-11-2017, 09:02 AM - 2 Likes   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I don't think Pentax competes with Canon, certainly not if all they do is rebadge third-party lenses. SItting back and "taking the money" is the path to irrelevance - as seen over the last 14 years.
I hope that this whole "Pentax only rebadges" nonesense will at some point come to an end. What they do is NOT rebadging lenses. They license optical design to save time and money for development. They use their own glass, their own coating and their own casing. I don't see why they should be blamed for using a good optical design and optimizing it to suit their needs.

02-11-2017, 09:10 AM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gedeon Quote
I was talking about the 50mm, because I wanted to illustrate what's becoming more simple, more standard on the market that pentax is not even able to go out. Sure, I would like a 20, a 24 or a 28mm, a 85mm, a 135mm ... there are many "holes" in the K mount, or lenses that would need to be modernized, with new coatings and new motors technology... But nothing...nothing, nothing, and nothing.
Buy a DFA 15-30, a DFA 24-70 and a DFA 70-200. Done. I do not understand what the issue is?
02-11-2017, 09:18 AM - 2 Likes   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet those are Tamron adaptions/collaborations. If a Canon or Nikon shooter wants those (at least the 15-30 and the 24-70), they buy them straight from Tamron.

In addition, they have a larger selection of options from their parent company. It stinks but that's the honest truth if we look at it without making up excuses.

I don't doubt the holes will be plugged, but right now there are holes in the K-1's lens offerings. In 2 weeks some of that will probably be filled so the wait isn't too much longer to see.

Patience is our friend here..
This is a useless debate. There can never be a Best, because there will never be an agreed universal standard for Good

For my uses Pentax is an excellent combination of IQ, features, ergonomics and price. K-1 is essentially a generalist, professional quality camera body and the three fast zooms are outstanding. Best? Who knows? Holes in the lens catalog? Probably. If someone needs those lenses now, Nikon makes good stuff and I hear Pentax smelled up the neighborhood so there's a D850 coming soon.

I surely don't base my identity confirmation on whether my friends affirm the completeness of a catalog of modern lenses, most of which they'll never buy.

One Nikon guy I know sneers at my K-1/28~105/Three Prinesses standard bag. He always has the latest honking Nikon and the most expensive lenses. And the most expensive Porsche. And the most expensive condo.

Everything he owns screams, "More money than you."

He worked for the phone company. Then his wife inherited.
02-11-2017, 09:23 AM - 1 Like   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Buy a DFA 15-30, a DFA 24-70 and a DFA 70-200. Done. I do not understand what the issue is?
Because there are a lot of people that prefer using primes. The performance of modern zooms has definitely increased a lot over the last one or two decades but primes are often still superior in terms of wide aperture and sharpness. Also a lot of people are using primes because they better suit their style of photography. I find using zooms makes me kind of lazy and think less about framing and the kind of picture I want to achieve in a certain situation with a certain lens.

But I also have to say that I don't support what Gedeon is saying. It's all about resources for development. Pentax just isn't as big of a company as Nikon, Canon or Sony. There are holes in the primes lineup but they will be filled. Just give them some time.


Last edited by alpheios; 02-11-2017 at 09:28 AM.
02-11-2017, 09:27 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by alpheios Quote
Because there are a lot of people that prefer using primes. The performance of modern zooms has definitely increased a lot over the last one or two decades but primes are often still superior in terms of wide aperture and sharpness. Also a lot of people are using primes because they better suit their style of photography. I find using zooms makes me kind of lazy and think less about framing and the kind of picture I want to achieve in a certain situation with a certain lens.
Then buy CaNikon until the catalog is complete.

It is a simple, binary decision.
02-11-2017, 09:34 AM - 2 Likes   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Then buy CaNikon until the catalog is complete.

It is a simple, binary decision.
I just added another statement to my post while you wrote that to clarify my point of view. I will never buy CaNikon. I will be a Pentaxian for the rest of my life. I can wait for their primes.
02-11-2017, 09:35 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is a useless debate. There can never be a Best, because there will never be an agreed universal standard for Good

For my uses Pentax is an excellent combination of IQ, features, ergonomics and price. K-1 is essentially a generalist, professional quality camera body and the three fast zooms are outstanding. Best? Who knows? Holes in the lens catalog? Probably. If someone needs those lenses now, Nikon makes good stuff and I hear Pentax smelled up the neighborhood so there's a D850 coming soon.

I surely don't base my identity confirmation on whether my friends affirm the completeness of a catalog of modern lenses, most of which they'll never buy.

One Nikon guy I know sneers at my K-1/28~105/Three Prinesses standard bag. He always has the latest honking Nikon and the most expensive lenses. And the most expensive Porsche. And the most expensive condo.

Everything he owns screams, "More money than you."

He worked for the phone company. Then his wife inherited.
I don't think that is the situation entirely. All people don't buy new because they want to show off to those that have old cameras and lenses. It is more a case of wanting a lens that performs well and has a warranty (is easily repairable). Newer coatings do make a big difference, especially in sunlight. Using ED lenses helps CA. So there are reasons for modern designs optically too.

If the goal is to make the most pleasing photos one can (and that definition involves sharpness, micro-contrast, and (dare I say it) bokeh) then there is a case for new lenses versus someone who is out to have the most pleasing time taking photos.

Some people buy Porsches because they love the handling, the feel, and the look. While others just want to be looked at. Let's not forget the former and focus only on the latter.

And the case still stands for those 'investing' in a system, Presently if they walk into a camera store and (rough example) see Canon with 4 FF bodies and 33 lenses, Nikon with 5 FF bodies and 28 lenses, and Pentax with 1 FF body and 17 lenses they are probably going to wonder if Pentax is for me.... can I make what they have work for me and do I want to 'invest' several thousand dollars into a more risky system?

Right now is probably the worst time for the kenspo's working on behalf of Ricoh/Pentax, because the system isn't fully developed yet. A couple more years and it could be another story though.
02-11-2017, 09:44 AM - 2 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Pentax has the most modern zoom FF line-up in the whole industry as they all been quite recently released
This is an area of opportunity for Pentax, there are very few people entering the market for standalone camera gear that don't already own multiple lenses and if there isn't something significantly new about new lenses, the opportunity to sell them to people who already own a lens that covers a particular focal length is very poor. Fast in-lens focus motors is something that is significantly new for Pentax and no other manufacturer; the silver lining of having a limited number of FF lens in production is that there are more opportunities to sell new lenses by filling gaps in the line-up. Canon and Nikon have no choice but to generate business by bringing new bodies to market, Pentax can take a break from the new body cycle and release new lenses to generate new business. New lens offerings require investment in new tooling and manufacturing processes, which leads to a steady progression of lens offerings over the next few years.

The future of Pentax systems is very bright. No one in the standalone camera industry is benefiting from large scale market shifts, it doesn't matter if Company A overtakes Company B to become the market leader, the thing that matters is profitably growing sales to ensure that the overall product lineup continues to progress. If the product line doesn't progress, business opportunities disappear. It's off topic, but the challenge for Sony is continuing to build their mirrorless business. Another lacklustre business cycle for Sony Inc. is not going to be good for owners of Sony photographic equipment.

02-11-2017, 09:57 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well some primes are on the roadmap. So a few of them would be expected for the upcoming cp+ show.

Pentax is missing some lenses that are popular for other brands. 70-300mm or 80-400 in that range. Some wide lenses. There is work to be done.

The relative problem is the low number of sales that can be expected for those lenses. Pentax now maybe sells some 1500-2500 units of K-1 in a month or so since it is downseazon for photography at the moment. How many lenses can you sell on that?
Because of.course there is not a single damn aps user that may look at those FF lenses to but?

Right, wonder how Canikon did for years...
02-11-2017, 10:01 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by alpheios Quote
I hope that this whole "Pentax only rebadges" nonesense will at some point come to an end. What they do is NOT rebadging lenses. They license optical design to save time and money for development. They use their own glass, their own coating and their own casing. I don't see why they should be blamed for using a good optical design and optimizing it to suit their needs.
It is nonsense, however the 15-30 and the 24-70 are indeed made by Tamron (presumably with Pentax coatings). That's 2 lenses - well, 3 with the 18-270 - out of how many?

The licensing of optical designs... that sounds like the collaboration with Tokina; back then, most of the "shared" lenses were Pentax optical designs. Both companies made their own versions.
02-11-2017, 10:03 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It is nonsense, however the 15-30 and the 24-70 are indeed made by Tamron (presumably with Pentax coatings). That's 2 lenses - well, 3 with the 18-270 - out of how many?

The licensing of optical designs... that sounds like the collaboration with Tokina; back then, most of the "shared" lenses were Pentax optical designs. Both companies made their own versions.
+ the Samsung/Schneider rebadges.
All but 12-24 were Pentax designs AFAIR.
02-11-2017, 10:13 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by alpheios Quote
Because there are a lot of people that prefer using primes.
So?
Pentax' lens strategy makes a lot of sense:
- year 0 (pre-K-1): two D FA telephoto zooms which are also useful with APS-C
- year 1: have 15 to 200 covered with f/2.8 zooms. Have a good quality "kit" zoom.
- year 2: primes.
They already had primes - some older designs and compatible DAs; but they had no FF zoom whatsoever.
Considering this, complaining that they didn't start with year 2 (or, as I've seen suggested, that they didn't wait until year 3-4-N) to launch the K-1 is absurd.

P.S. I want primes, and I mean modern primes (no more screw drive AF and film-era optics, sorry!) to replace my DA Limiteds. I knew their lens line when I bought the K-1, and made an informed decision to trust them to act on their promises.
Complaining like this doesn't help anyone, it doesn't even inform Ricoh Imaging about the gaps in the lens line. Complaining like this has a single purpose: to hurt Pentax, which eventually would hurt us.

---------- Post added 11-02-17 at 07:15 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
+ the Samsung/Schneider rebadges.
All but 12-24 were Pentax designs AFAIR.
The Samsung/Schneider, yes, those were Pentax lenses made by Pentax for Samsung (though Samsung claimed otherwise, lol)
All but 12-24, I'm quite sure that's correct.
02-11-2017, 10:40 AM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Considering this, complaining that they didn't start with year 2 (or, as I've seen suggested, that they didn't wait until year 3-4-N) to launch the K-1 is absurd.

Complaining like this doesn't help anyone, it doesn't even inform Ricoh Imaging about the gaps in the lens line. Complaining like this has a single purpose: to hurt Pentax, which eventually would hurt us.
I'm sorry but did you even read my whole post? Where exactly did I complain about that? I'm not complaining at all. I'm on your side with this.
Also Ricoh doesn't need to be informed about gaps in the lineup. They know about the gaps and will fill them. Just as I said before.
02-11-2017, 10:57 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by alpheios Quote
I'm sorry but did you even read my whole post? Where exactly did I complain about that? I'm not complaining at all. I'm on your side with this.
Also Ricoh doesn't need to be informed about gaps in the lineup. They know about the gaps and will fill them. Just as I said before.
Of course I read it, and I never said you are complaining - the OP does (sorry for not being clear about this). It seems you made the same decision as I did, that is to trust Ricoh Imaging will make those primes. It seems to me we'll both buy some of those primes.

Yes, that's my point too - with an addition: Ricoh Imaging had an extensive lens survey specifically to find out what kind of lenses we'd want to buy.
02-11-2017, 11:18 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Of course I read it, and I never said you are complaining - the OP does (sorry for not being clear about this). It seems you made the same decision as I did, that is to trust Ricoh Imaging will make those primes. It seems to me we'll both buy some of those primes.

Yes, that's my point too - with an addition: Ricoh Imaging had an extensive lens survey specifically to find out what kind of lenses we'd want to buy.
Then I actually did misunderstand your post because you quoted me. Ricoh will do the right thing. For now i'm pretty happy with my Sigma 35. But since I'm a prime shooter I'm really excited about the upcoming announcement at CP+. The future is bright.
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