SIGMA Lenses and K-Mount

cesarfishman · 03-08-2017, 10:24 AM

Is there an explanation why Sigma doesn't offer their full lineup in K-Mount?

Why pick and choose? I've already met plenty of Pentax shooters who would absolutely jump on a 24-70 Art Series lens, for example.

Does it really make that much of a difference in R&D to offer it in another mount?

**boriscleto** · 03-08-2017, 10:32 AM

Because they don't have to.

Canikon dominate the market and Pentax is a direct competitor for what's left.

**BigMackCam** · 03-08-2017, 10:34 AM

It's been discussed here quite a few times before, and Sigma has been asked why (I think by PF staff interviewers, actually). Basically, the potential number of sales in K-mount doesn't stack up for them financially.

It's not just a case of fitting a dumb mount to the lens - there's the aperture lever mechanism and, of course, the electronics and (presumably) firmware too. That's quite a lot costly of design and production work to produce a run of lenses that - compared to the Nikon and Canon mount versions - will spend quite a bit of time on the shelves.

Bear in mind that Sigma doesn't pay for a Ricoh / Pentax license to develop for the K-mount, so it has to do reverse engineering work to figure out they way each Pentax camera behaves. There will be a lot of similarities between each Pentax body, but some individual wrinkles too - which is why some older Sigma lenses won't work on newer bodies without firmware updates.

HarisF1 · 03-08-2017, 10:49 AM

With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance?

**lithedreamer** · 03-08-2017, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by HarisF1

With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance?

Then they have access to an even smaller fraction of the market (KAF4 owners) AND they'd have to do more reverse-engineering for that mount.

**BigMackCam** · 03-08-2017, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by lithedreamer

Then they have access to an even smaller fraction of the market (KAF4 owners) AND they'd have to do more reverse-engineering for that mount.

Precisely. Of course, they wouldn't need to worry about the mechanical aperture linkage, but even so, KAF4 is a good deal of new work, I'd think...

**lithedreamer** · 03-08-2017, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Precisely. Of course, they wouldn't need to worry about the mechanical aperture linkage, but even so, KAF4 is a good deal of new work, I'd think...

Plus, Nikon's mount still uses a mechanical aperture linkage anyway.

**boriscleto** · 03-08-2017, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by lithedreamer

Plus, Nikon's mount still uses a mechanical aperture linkage anyway.

The latest Sigma lenses for Nikon don't.

Kunzite · 03-08-2017, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by HarisF1

With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance?

I think KAF4 is required, but unfortunately not sufficient. Let me explain.
It is required, because Sigma has started to make electromagnetic aperture-only lenses (AFAIK Sigma SA is using an electromagnetically-controlled aperture, more or less copying Canon). There's no way Sigma would adapt their lenses just for Pentax.
It is not sufficient, because only a significant increase in demand (or rather, in the Pentaxian user base i.e. prospective buyers) can persuade them to introduce more K-mount lenses.

**THoog** · 03-08-2017, 01:08 PM

I agree - KAF4 is necessary, but not sufficient. The number of potential sales is a more significant factor than any cost/complexity savings of KAF4 versus KAF3. There are going to be fixed costs for either one (R&D/testing, parts ordering and inventory, retooling the line for a different batch, packaging, product inventory...). When you can only hope to sell ten K-mount lenses for every hundred EF-mount, it's worth more to just keep making the Canon version (or the Canon version of a different design). Cut that to five - or three - KAF4 lenses, and fuggedaboutit.

vector · 03-08-2017, 01:48 PM

Sigma does offer a mount conversion service, and Pentax is on the list of supported mounts. The list of lenses they offer conversion on does not cover their whole catalog but they do cover some lenses that are not available new in K mount. I have never used the service, but since they offer it and have an up to date list of supported lenses I would assume one can purchase say a Sigma 150-600mm lens in Nikon mount and send it off to Sigma for conversion to Pentax K mount.

I am curious if anyone here has used this service?

Mount Conversion Service | Lenses | SIGMA GLOBAL VISION

mohb · 03-08-2017, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

igma has been asked why (I think by PF staff interviewers,

I remember an interview on here a number of years ago with the owner of Sigma where he said that because they had chosen to stay in Japan at their original location their production facilities were limited i.e, they can only make so many lenses per year. The ones that sell in the greatest number (apart from the SA -it's a family firm and it was his father's pet project) get priority it's as simple as that.

vector · 03-08-2017, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by vector

Sigma does offer a mount conversion service, and Pentax is on the list of supported mounts. The list of lenses they offer conversion on does not cover their whole catalog but they do cover some lenses that are not available new in K mount. I have never used the service, but since they offer it and have an up to date list of supported lenses I would assume one can purchase say a Sigma 150-600mm lens in Nikon mount and send it off to Sigma for conversion to Pentax K mount.

I am curious if anyone here has used this service?

Mount Conversion Service | Lenses | SIGMA GLOBAL VISION

Answering my own post here: Turns out the Q&A section clarifies this - you can only switch to mount that Sigma produces that lens in. Too bad.

Q. Can I request to convert to any mount of my choice?

A. Yes, as long as the lens in the requested mount has been released by SIGMA as a product.

**boriscleto** · 03-08-2017, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by THoog

When you can only hope to sell ten K-mount lenses for every hundred EF-mount, it's worth more to just keep making the Canon version (or the Canon version of a different design).

I think you're being wildly optimistic about the sales ratio...

E-man · 03-08-2017, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by boriscleto

I think you're being wildly optimistic about the sales ratio...

I think that ratio was for illustrative purposes only.

The bottom line is Sigma is in business to make money. If producing a lens for Pentax cameras doesn't offer sufficient return on investment (i.e., the cost of developing the lens and bringing it to market) then it makes little sense to do so, especially if the Pentax-compatible lenses turn out to be money losers. I'm sure their accountants have come up with a formula under which a product has to be x percent profitable to be considered viable. And given the razor thin margins on new camera equipment these days, I'm sure it's very hard to justify smaller projects that can't promise sufficient return on investment. They're also hamstrung by the market in that they risk damaging their reputation if they charge a price premium for Pentax mount lenses over the same lenses in canikon mounts in an attempt to recoup their investment, especially once disgruntled customers begin accusing them of price gouging.

The real opportunity here might be for Sigma or some third party to come up with an adapter that would allow full functionality of a Canon or Nikon mount lens on a Pentax camera without loss of image quality. Consumers might be able to justify the price, especially if they can use the adapter with more than one lens, but there's still those pesky R&D costs for the manufacturer to consider.

03-08-2017, 10:24 AM	#1
cesarfishman Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: LA Posts: 79	SIGMA Lenses and K-Mount Is there an explanation why Sigma doesn't offer their full lineup in K-Mount? Why pick and choose? I've already met plenty of Pentax shooters who would absolutely jump on a 24-70 Art Series lens, for example. Does it really make that much of a difference in R&D to offer it in another mount?

03-08-2017, 10:34 AM	#3
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,686	It's been discussed here quite a few times before, and Sigma has been asked why (I think by PF staff interviewers, actually). Basically, the potential number of sales in K-mount doesn't stack up for them financially. It's not just a case of fitting a dumb mount to the lens - there's the aperture lever mechanism and, of course, the electronics and (presumably) firmware too. That's quite a lot costly of design and production work to produce a run of lenses that - compared to the Nikon and Canon mount versions - will spend quite a bit of time on the shelves. Bear in mind that Sigma doesn't pay for a Ricoh / Pentax license to develop for the K-mount, so it has to do reverse engineering work to figure out they way each Pentax camera behaves. There will be a lot of similarities between each Pentax body, but some individual wrinkles too - which is why some older Sigma lenses won't work on newer bodies without firmware updates. Last edited by BigMackCam; 03-08-2017 at 10:50 AM.

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03-08-2017, 10:32 AM	#2
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Because they don't have to. Canikon dominate the market and Pentax is a direct competitor for what's left.

03-08-2017, 10:49 AM	#4
HarisF1 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 543	With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance?

03-08-2017, 11:56 AM	#5
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by HarisF1 With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance? Then they have access to an even smaller fraction of the market (KAF4 owners) AND they'd have to do more reverse-engineering for that mount.

03-08-2017, 12:26 PM	#6
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,686	Originally posted by lithedreamer Then they have access to an even smaller fraction of the market (KAF4 owners) AND they'd have to do more reverse-engineering for that mount. Precisely. Of course, they wouldn't need to worry about the mechanical aperture linkage, but even so, KAF4 is a good deal of new work, I'd think...

03-08-2017, 12:31 PM	#7
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	Originally posted by BigMackCam Precisely. Of course, they wouldn't need to worry about the mechanical aperture linkage, but even so, KAF4 is a good deal of new work, I'd think... Plus, Nikon's mount still uses a mechanical aperture linkage anyway.

03-08-2017, 12:46 PM	#8
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by lithedreamer Plus, Nikon's mount still uses a mechanical aperture linkage anyway. The latest Sigma lenses for Nikon don't.

03-08-2017, 01:04 PM	#9
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by HarisF1 With the new KAF4 mount could there be a chance? I think KAF4 is required, but unfortunately not sufficient. Let me explain. It is required, because Sigma has started to make electromagnetic aperture-only lenses (AFAIK Sigma SA is using an electromagnetically-controlled aperture, more or less copying Canon). There's no way Sigma would adapt their lenses just for Pentax. It is not sufficient, because only a significant increase in demand (or rather, in the Pentaxian user base i.e. prospective buyers) can persuade them to introduce more K-mount lenses.

03-08-2017, 01:08 PM	#10
THoog Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,685	I agree - KAF4 is necessary, but not sufficient. The number of potential sales is a more significant factor than any cost/complexity savings of KAF4 versus KAF3. There are going to be fixed costs for either one (R&D/testing, parts ordering and inventory, retooling the line for a different batch, packaging, product inventory...). When you can only hope to sell ten K-mount lenses for every hundred EF-mount, it's worth more to just keep making the Canon version (or the Canon version of a different design). Cut that to five - or three - KAF4 lenses, and fuggedaboutit.

03-08-2017, 01:48 PM	#11
vector Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Alberta Posts: 713	Sigma does offer a mount conversion service, and Pentax is on the list of supported mounts. The list of lenses they offer conversion on does not cover their whole catalog but they do cover some lenses that are not available new in K mount. I have never used the service, but since they offer it and have an up to date list of supported lenses I would assume one can purchase say a Sigma 150-600mm lens in Nikon mount and send it off to Sigma for conversion to Pentax K mount. I am curious if anyone here has used this service? Mount Conversion Service \| Lenses \| SIGMA GLOBAL VISION

03-08-2017, 01:49 PM	#12
mohb Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,912	Originally posted by BigMackCam igma has been asked why (I think by PF staff interviewers, I remember an interview on here a number of years ago with the owner of Sigma where he said that because they had chosen to stay in Japan at their original location their production facilities were limited i.e, they can only make so many lenses per year. The ones that sell in the greatest number (apart from the SA -it's a family firm and it was his father's pet project) get priority it's as simple as that.

03-08-2017, 02:13 PM	#13
vector Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Location: Alberta Posts: 713	Originally posted by vector Sigma does offer a mount conversion service, and Pentax is on the list of supported mounts. The list of lenses they offer conversion on does not cover their whole catalog but they do cover some lenses that are not available new in K mount. I have never used the service, but since they offer it and have an up to date list of supported lenses I would assume one can purchase say a Sigma 150-600mm lens in Nikon mount and send it off to Sigma for conversion to Pentax K mount. I am curious if anyone here has used this service? Mount Conversion Service \| Lenses \| SIGMA GLOBAL VISION Answering my own post here: Turns out the Q&A section clarifies this - you can only switch to mount that Sigma produces that lens in. Too bad. Q. Can I request to convert to any mount of my choice? A. Yes, as long as the lens in the requested mount has been released by SIGMA as a product.

03-08-2017, 02:24 PM	#14
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by THoog When you can only hope to sell ten K-mount lenses for every hundred EF-mount, it's worth more to just keep making the Canon version (or the Canon version of a different design). I think you're being wildly optimistic about the sales ratio...

03-08-2017, 02:52 PM	#15
E-man Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 678	Originally posted by boriscleto I think you're being wildly optimistic about the sales ratio... I think that ratio was for illustrative purposes only. The bottom line is Sigma is in business to make money. If producing a lens for Pentax cameras doesn't offer sufficient return on investment (i.e., the cost of developing the lens and bringing it to market) then it makes little sense to do so, especially if the Pentax-compatible lenses turn out to be money losers. I'm sure their accountants have come up with a formula under which a product has to be x percent profitable to be considered viable. And given the razor thin margins on new camera equipment these days, I'm sure it's very hard to justify smaller projects that can't promise sufficient return on investment. They're also hamstrung by the market in that they risk damaging their reputation if they charge a price premium for Pentax mount lenses over the same lenses in canikon mounts in an attempt to recoup their investment, especially once disgruntled customers begin accusing them of price gouging. The real opportunity here might be for Sigma or some third party to come up with an adapter that would allow full functionality of a Canon or Nikon mount lens on a Pentax camera without loss of image quality. Consumers might be able to justify the price, especially if they can use the adapter with more than one lens, but there's still those pesky R&D costs for the manufacturer to consider.