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05-10-2017, 05:30 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
So where does that leave us...us Pentaxians ? Pretty well consigned to using only Pentax lenses...
Well...not judging by my signature. And to be honest, I'm pretty much decided to sell the last Pentax in the stable.

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05-10-2017, 07:15 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by victormeldrew Quote
Well...not judging by my signature. And to be honest, I'm pretty much decided to sell the last Pentax in the stable.

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You do have a collection of non Pentax, K mount lenses, that for sure.

Your last statement... 'And to be honest, I'm pretty much decided to sell the last Pentax in the stable. ....' made me think about my situation with Pentax.

Since the K-1 came out , till about February 2017, I wrestled with whether or not I bought the K-1 or would buy a new Canon 5D3. I felt the K-1 was the better camera of the two, but in my mind was the usual...what is the better decision for the future....keep with Pentax or go Canon.

I went with a new K-1, love it, wonderful bit of kit as the Brits say. But there is still that nagging thought in mind...what will the camera world be like in 5 years ? No one knows that answer, least of all me. Frankly, I do think Canon is the only 'safe' bet and I'm including Nikon, Sony, etc....in the who knows if they will be there in 5 -10 years.

Life is a gamble I suppose.
05-22-2017, 12:55 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by videoman Quote
...
Ricoh has shown it is committed to the brand & it takes a great deal of time & effort to increase the share of market from where Ricoh started. It has done & continues to do so a great job. By doing this, slowly other other third party lenses makers will continue to introduce new lenses, not perhaps at the same rate as for Canon & Nikon but with each one it shows that Pentax is still relevant & growing....
I agree, Ricoh has done marginally better than Hoya... but really it didn't take much to do so ☺
Hoya took control of Pentax with an hostile takeover, digested the meaty part (patents and medical), then spit out an almost empty shell. No more lenses made in Japan, the team that designed the Limiteds lost to the competition, the FF top-line camera postponed again and again, etc, etc, etc.
Ricoh inherited a brand (still prestigious and with a tiny but passionate user base) and few people who actually know how to design camera for photographers, and not home appliances ☺
Ricoh Imaging will restructure, that has already been confirmed. From what I've read all options are on the table, from concentrating even more on high end products, to shutting down or selling.
Japanese optical companies might be a little difficult to "read" from the external, but they know almost everything of each other. They also have a very high level of collaboration, some vintage lenses show it in practice. I've seen the same mechanical parts used by Kino, Komine and Tokina...
Reading the falling number of optics available in PK mount, and the lack of recent high end AF objectives released for Pentax, solely in view of the market share, is not correct, IMHO.
Let's see in practice:
Tamron makes lenses for Ricoh-Pentax, for sure they have an agreement, we'll see no new Tamrons for Pentax for a while, I guess.
Tokina is controlled, at least partially, by the same group that owned Pentax. No surprise they didn't compete for the PKAF market. Only the present and previous owners know about the details of their agreements. It is left open to speculation. My personal opinion is that we won't see Tokina lenses for Pentax in the near future.
The last one is Sigma. The very few other Japanese lens makers still surviving, like Cosina, make objectives for other brands (a pity Voigtlander lenses in PK mount were discontinued).
Sigma explained the shrinking number of lenses available in Pentax bayonet with market share.
Sorry, I'm not taking it as absolute truth.
It can be one of the factors, not the only one.
The many holes in current Pentax lenses line-up, especially for FF, would allow Sigma to substantially own the market niche for PKAF fast primes.
It's not such a small market, comparatively. For other mounts Sigma faces a strong competition, both from the "original" makers and other third party brands.
Personally I have the opinion that some Sigma optics, if made available in Pentax bayonet, would sell by themselves, and I don't think that, as others suggested, the investment in R&D, tooling, etc, would be of any concern for a brand like Sigma. Not-so-new high end zooms work a charm with the AF of my K-1, after the software has been updated. They don't need to reinvent the wheel! ☺
They only thing they need is a clear, unequivocal commitment to the Pentax-K mount and to high-technology, innovative FF and APS-C solutions.
They want to be reasonably certain that the brand will not quietly thread waters, relying on a shrinking user base, and eventually go the Samsung way...
Pentax-A primes are a totally different story. Once you have the optics (much easier than before, with modern computer programs), a decent prime with electric contacts can be made in any Chinese basement, exactly like another myriad of products.
I'd be very curious to know if the Pentax market is so marginal, for brands like Irix, Laowa or even Samyang.
In my opinion, some Chinese optics would sell much, much more, if they had something remotely resembling a distribution of sorts ☺☺

I use Pentax cameras and lenses since the late seventies, I've used the 6x7 professionally, I LOVE my new K-1, and I own > 300 lenses that can be used on my Pentax DSLR cameras... though I'm not a fanboy.
We could buy a new Pentax body, all of us, and it won't make any difference. Not a single new third party lens would magically materialize.
Market share isn't everything.
A niche market is fine, as long as there is very little competition, there is a dedicated user base (Pentax has got it) and a strong, , viable, convincing medium term plan. I doubt even the insiders have a clear idea about that...

Cheers

Paolo

Last edited by cyberjunkie; 05-22-2017 at 01:02 AM.
05-22-2017, 06:19 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Life is a gamble I suppose.
Grass always seems greener..! A while ago we had a confession thread by people who switched from Pentax and regretted it. Some went to the affordable Canon FF, other's to Nikon or Sony. Many more people than I expected found that their new system is not significantly better and has its own drawbacks. Plus, its unfamiliar and they don't have as much gear for it. Some of those people then returned or did dual system, but that is costly


Last edited by Na Horuk; 05-22-2017 at 06:38 AM.
05-22-2017, 09:51 AM   #50
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QuoteQuote:
Some went to the affordable Canon FF, other's to Nikon or Sony. Many more people than I expected found that their new system is not significantly better and has its own drawbacks. Plus, its unfamiliar and they don't have as much gear for it. Some of those people then returned or did dual system, but that is costly
If some day Pentax will go belly up, that is, there will be no new PK mount cameras, I will sadly adapt to the new reality and use most of my lenses with a Sony mirrorless, not so differently from the way I use them now. A pity for my AF zooms, but they are a small minority.
At present I see very few reasons, if any, to switch to another brand.
If you need a Canon I think you made a mistake in the first place, choosing Pentax. If you don't need a fast, reliable follow focus AF, the only other reason I see would be being future proof. Canon and Sony make their own sensors and have large (financial) shoulders.
A little weak a reason, from my point of view, but of course YMMV ☺
Nikon and Pentax have much in common, beyond the basic hardware. If I had to start now, I'd probably go for Nikon, because of the large system and the price of vintage lenses... but I'm glad I made my choice long, long time ago, when I bought three second hand A Star primes ☺ Now I can use a huge number of great lenses, PK, M42 and adapted, and buy a K-1 with moving sensor for cheaper than the equivalent 810.
Switching to Nikon makes sense only for those who have not already invested in valuable PK lenses.
I understand those who switched to a Sony full frame before the advent of the K-1. Not sure it makes sense today, unless you don't mind going fully manual and renouncing the optical viewfinder. I still don't get along very well with Live View, so it's not my cup of tea.

From my point of view all this brand switching seems plain silly... or the logical outcome of a wrong, uninformed choice.
Personally I still like all my Pentax cameras, including the K-01 (in a kind of weird way), and I absolutely love the K-1. I enjoy what the moving sensor offers, I mostly use manual focus primes, and I value rendition and bokeh over absolute sharpness.
I don't like cheaper Canon and Nikon bodies (for different reasons), and the Nikon register would prevent me from using my most treasured vintage lenses.
With Sony adapting old lenses would be even easier, but I still prefer reflex cameras.
Unfortunately there are shadows too. Leaving alone the concerns about Ricoh mid term plans (see my previous post), the situation of Pentax as lens maker is not so rosy.
People used to buy Pentax because of the lenses.
The line-up, especially for FF, is not sufficient, some important lenses are just rebadged, and those announced are still available only on paper.
If Ricoh-Pentax is not pushing its own line, why third parties should?
I don't care very much, I already have all the third party AF zooms I need... and I rarely use them.
These days I'm almost exclusively shooting with a Tamron Adaptall-2 soft focus zoom, a converted Trioplan 100mm, a converted Summicron M 90mm, a Pentax-K f/1,2 50mm, an Auto Takumar f/1,8 85mm, a Samyang 35mm, a Sigma Ultra Wide 24mm, and a Samyang 14mm.
All are MF, and only one was bought new... just because I found a great price and LBA prevailed over patience and common sense ☺
I always have three AF zooms with me, either two Sigma's and one Tokina, or one Tamron, one Sigma and one Tokina. I almost never use them, unless I need to use focals longer than 180mm.
The Tamron shows some backfocus with the K-1, the others are spot on. No complaints about the way AF works, or at least none lens-related.

After all the choice is not so limited, even considering only third party AF lenses... ☺

Cheers

Paolo

Last edited by cyberjunkie; 05-22-2017 at 09:58 AM.
05-29-2017, 11:14 AM   #51
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I also think that Pentax has some special relationship with Hoya/Tokina, Tamron and Co. At the same time I stopped buying third party glass a long time ago as something is always bothering you compared to the original lenses... Tamron glass in Pentax package is still OK. Feels like the real thing.
With Pentax APS-C and all the available primes that was never a problem, with FF my perception has changed significantly. Pentax should do their job and produce more new glass. Some (many) people here would buy them right away!
The only thrid party lenses I am considering these days would be very exotic.
05-29-2017, 03:05 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
Some (many) people here would buy them right away!
"Some people" is a phrase I have no problem with, Zapp.

But I don't think "many" ... my guess is the market here and anywhere else is very, very small.

Fuji, Pentax, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic owners need to get used to poor support from Sigma, Tamron and Tokina.


Last edited by clackers; 05-29-2017 at 03:51 PM.
05-30-2017, 06:54 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote

Fuji, Pentax, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic owners need to get used to poor support from Sigma, Tamron and Tokina.
I agree, i'd just leave Sony out of the equation.
Sony seems very committed to its line of APS-C and FF mirrorless cameras, there are great lenses, and the AF is getting better and better.
Btw, Sony manufactures one great sensor after the other, while Micro 4/3 (a great standard, IMHO) suffers from the opposite situation.
I don't know about other countries, but here (Thailand) i see many Sony E-mount cameras.
In comparison, i've seen only one Pentax in the last 2/3 years, likely a japanese.
Chinese tourist have mostly Canons, and i've seen some students of a thai photography school. They had a majority of Nikons.

I can't see why a Tamron made Pentax should be any better than a cheaper identical objective, with in-lens SR... but IF i needed one, i'd be fine with it, cause it's the only choice available.
In my personal case, i shoot more than 70% of my pics in manual focus, and i have a preference for fast primes with nice bokeh.
If i could ever find a second hand Samyang 2/135mm (best lens in its category), or a Venus SmoothTransFocus, i'd be a totally happy camper!
My heartfelt thanks to korean and chinese lens makers that still make nice optics in PK mount. If all of them had electric contacts i'd be even happier, but i guess that it's much better than nothing!

Regarding Sigma line of PKAF lenses, past and present, and letting alone the recent Art primes (disgracefully unavailable in Pentax mount), what really bugs me are the prices. Due to the reduced number of lenses sold when they were still present in Sigma catalogues, some of the best/high cost zooms and primes are quite expensive on the second hand market.
I couldn't find the 180mm Macro AF at an acceptable price (Nikon mount ones, mechanically similar, seem to always fetch lower prices on Ebay), and when i decided to buy a penultimate version 2.8/24-70mm EX DG Macro, and a late version 120-400mm EX DG OS, well, they didn't come cheap.
When i need a zoom (and AF) i'm more than fine with them, as i'm okey with the Tamron 2.8/70-200mm and even the Tokina AT-X 20-35mm.
Considering the use i make of my lenses, and the cost of recent Pentax zooms for FF, i'm definitely fine this way.
I could be lured by an optically improved/faster AF version of the Limiteds, but i don't see it happening anytime soon.

If i didn't have substitutes (albeit not as good), i'd hurry for a Sigma 1.4/35mm Art.
According to tests, and everything i've read about it, it's a great lens, and i'm afraid it will be available till the current stock lasts.

cheers

Paolo
05-30-2017, 08:31 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
I agree, i'd just leave Sony out of the equation.
I don't see why. The lenses for it are overwhelmingly by Sony themselves, not the third party manufacturers that are the topic of this thread.

QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
i didn't have substitutes (albeit not as good), i'd hurry for a Sigma 1.4/35mm Art.
According to tests, and everything i've read about it, it's a great lens, and i'm afraid it will be available till the current stock lasts.
I have the Sigma 35mm Art and quite like it, Paolo:



The problem is, not many Pentaxians ever bought it.

You can come up with lots of theories why (I'm sure that they include the FA31) but sales of it and the 18-35mm f1.8 Art must have been so disappointing (I rarely see anyone else's pictures taken with them on this forum, for instance) that after losing money, Sigma gave up on us.

QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
i could ever find a second hand Samyang 2/135mm (best lens in its category) ... i'd be a totally happy camper
There was one for sale in this forum the other day.

Cheers,
Ian
05-31-2017, 07:18 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by PJ1 Quote
The Leitax adapter more or less shows what can be done (without AF). But while we have some extraordinarily capable people on these Forums, I think finding the tool-making, electronics expertise and optical knowledge in one person (equipped with the right workshop) would be a tall order. My point was that with CAD it cannot be too difficult (or expensive) to re-design the rear section of a lens (registration distance, throat, mount, etc) . After all, when they turn out lenses for different mounts, they don't start re-designing the lens from the front element and work backwards. And if you have the electronics and mount sorted for one lens, you are surely 95% of the way to having it for any lens. It is a matter of adapting what is already there. Maybe the run size would not justify it in every case. But maybe there are more than just economic considerations.
The last I knew (I haven't checked lately), nobody has even been able to successfully convert a Pentax 60-250 to screw drive. That's maybe 2% of the task of completely adapting a foreign lens to work on every Pentax body. If you mean to disregard AF, I think you're also throwing out at least 80-90% of the potential market for most lenses.
05-31-2017, 09:28 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by tibbitts Quote
nobody has even been able to successfully convert a Pentax 60-250 to screw drive

Conversion to screw drive is a different issue. All I was indicating was that the Leitax adapter provides a way of adapting some lenses without AF. If the lens allowed manual aperture control and could be used as a manual lens without talking to the camera, I doubt that designing the rear part of a lens for a particular mount would be that much harder. With every lens I have dismantled (and put back together successfully) the mount was the rear section and it was just a piece of metal. For example, with K-mount and Nikon F being much the same registration distance, it wouldn't difficult to produce a replacement mount that gave the right registration distance. But adding communication between the lens and the camera raises the level of complexity.
06-01-2017, 04:13 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I don't see why. The lenses for it are overwhelmingly by Sony themselves, not the third party manufacturers that are the topic of this thread.
I don't own a Sony, and i'm not reading much marketing stuff, though i'm led to believe that there are more third party AF lenses for Sony than for Pentax. Am i wrong?
Not regarding AF lenses, okey... but i remember that the super fast Mitakon primes were/will be released first in Sony mount.
I guess they are expecting to sell them easier than in other mounts, maybe because many Sony owners are getting accustomed to full manual objectives, cause they can easily (and cheaply!) enjoy the thrill to try almost any kind of vintage glasses, sometimes getting a kind of optical rendition that isn't available with modern time lenses (unless you're a real master of PP).
Judging from the pics posted on Flickr, and from the rising prices of most vintage primes, it's getting more fashionable than i thought it would...

QuoteQuote:
I have the Sigma 35mm Art and quite like it, Paolo:

The problem is, not many Pentaxians ever bought it.

You can come up with lots of theories why (I'm sure that they include the FA31) but sales of it and the 18-35mm f1.8 Art must have been so disappointing (I rarely see anyone else's pictures taken with them on this forum, for instance) that after losing money, Sigma gave up on us.
You are right, the (optically great) 18-35mm has sold even less than the 35mm, at least based on the number of pics posted on this forum.
IMHO, both are milestones in the recent history of camera optics.
A bit weird, but not so much. I guess that:
1) a good number of those with money to spend have invested in the K-1
2) many more are perfectly okey with the vintage lenses they already own
3) most users of the historically important brand, especially those that didn't change the mount since long, long time (like Leica, and also Nikon and Pentax) tend to be a little snobby in regard to third party optics

QuoteQuote:

There was one for sale in this forum the other day.
Oh, thanks!
I'll check, and see for how much the Samyang 2/135mm has been sold, but even if i saw it in time it would have been complicated.
Unfortunately many items are not even shipped to the EU, let alone Thailand!
I don't fault any nationality in particular, many people seem to be unaware that the world has changed a lot in recent years, that we are more and more globally interconnected. Unfortunately it didn't happen to let us buy 2nd hand lenses abroad... but that is a different story
So i routinely check what's available in the EU when i go back to Italy. Cheap shipment and no VAT to pay
Btw, if anyone was ever interested, international shipments work great here. Fast, safe, and i've never paid any tax.
Even parcels from China, Russia, Ukraina, which take forever to reach Italy, are delivered to Thailand in one third of the time.

Last comment for the picture you posted.
Great shot, Ian. Great shot.
It seems you are making good use of your fantastic Sigma 35mm Art.
I've been tempted to buy it many times, but my rational side prevailed, i already have a Samyang 1.4/35mm manual focus, and the Pentax-FA 2/35mm AL. The former should be just a tad worse, optically. The latter is small, reliable, and is a quite good performer.
I really don't need it... but the same can be said of most of the vintage lenses i continue to buy, for the sheer pleasure of handling and using old objectives that have a place, bigger or smaller, in the history of photographic optics. It seems i really can't help... so i let it go
I have four waiting for my return, purchased in a few months and delivered to a friend. All are third party: a Peleng 8mm, a Tamron Anniversary 2.5/180mm, a Steinheil Tele-Quinar 200mm, and the last Novoflex lens head i missed, the 640mm.
I respect the opinion of those who would never match a K-1 with anything but the latest super-sharp Pentax zooms, but i felt the opposite, after buying the new full frame. IMHO, the K-1 works better with most vintage lenses than other recent APS-C cameras. Under this point of view, the choice is rich, not scarce


cheers

Paolo
06-01-2017, 09:14 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
I don't own a Sony, and i'm not reading much marketing stuff, though i'm led to believe that there are more third party AF lenses for Sony than for Pentax. Am i wrong?
No, not even the Sigma 35mm and 18-35mm Art you were talking about.

You should go with Canon or Nikon if this is important to you. I'm a Sony owner, BTW.


QuoteOriginally posted by cyberjunkie Quote
It seems you are making good use of your fantastic Sigma 35mm Art.
I've been tempted to buy it many times, but my rational side prevailed, i already have a Samyang 1.4/35mm manual focus, and the Pentax-FA 2/35mm AL. The former should be just a tad worse, optically. The latter is small, reliable, and is a quite good performer.
I really don't need it... but the same can be said of most of the vintage lenses i continue to buy, for the sheer pleasure of handling and using old objectives that have a place, bigger or smaller, in the history of photographic optics. It seems i really can't help... so i let it go
I also have the FA35/2 and the FA31/1.8, Paolo - three very different lenses all up. The Sigma is the sharpest of the three, the FA31 the best rendering, IMHO.
06-01-2017, 10:19 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I have the Sigma 35mm Art and quite like it, Paolo:
Agree with you there clackers, its a superb lens. Whenever I attach it to my camera, I realise what a good choice I made, even though I already had 2 35mm lenses. Im surprised that there arent many pictures on PF taken with that lens. Ive seen a 3-4 members post a few but thats about it.
06-01-2017, 10:48 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by schnitzer79 Quote
Agree with you there clackers, its a superb lens. Whenever I attach it to my camera, I realise what a good choice I made, even though I already had 2 35mm lenses. Im surprised that there arent many pictures on PF taken with that lens. Ive seen a 3-4 members post a few but thats about it.
There are very few of us.

I think as disappointed as we are, the Sigma board was more upset.

"Don't make lenses for those guys. They talk a big game but don't actually open their wallets."
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