I'll Never Buy A Lens With "HAZE" In It Again

Fenwoodian · 06-06-2017, 07:03 AM

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Originally posted by timw4mail

What does 'haze' generally end up being?

I'm not sure, but my best guess would be crystalization/decompostion of the original glue.

It seems like certain lenses are prone to this. For example, one of the lenses I just worked on is a Voigtlander 75mm f/2.5 SL Color-Heliar. A quick search of ebay shows that there are a few of these lenses currently for sale. A couple of them have the same type of "haze" problem that mine had. That leads me to believe that maybe Voigtlander/Cosina used a lens element glue in their manufacturing process on this lens that would not hold up well over time, thereby condemning all of these lenses to a premature failure.

Last edited by Fenwoodian; 06-06-2017 at 07:40 AM.

stevebrot · 06-06-2017, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

Full immersion into Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO)@ 120 °C for a few minutes should do the trick.

Regardless of its use as an alternative health remedy and industrial solvent, I suggest strong caution when working with DMSO. It easily penetrates skin and commonly-used hand protection and will carry any contaminants with it into the tissues.

By way of explanation, I was a biologist of sorts in another life and at one time the group I was working with explored use of DMSO for field extraction of pigments and other substances from marine algae (seaweed). We found it to work well, but were a bit disturbed to note that despite wearing fairly thick rubber gloves, even incidental splashes of DMSO onto the glove would result in almost instant garlic taste in our mouths (indicative of DMSO exposure). Part of the project was to do before/after electron micrographs (TEM) of the algal cells to establish the degree of cellular disruption, if any. The images showed profound disruption of both chloroplast and mitochondrial membranes. At that point, we decided that field use was not a good idea and scrubbed the project.

Dimethyl sulfoxide - Wikipedia

Steve

**Digitalis** · 06-06-2017, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by stevebrot

Regardless of its use as an alternative health remedy and industrial solvent, I suggest strong caution when working with DMSO.

I agree, dealing with solvents of any kind should be done with due care. The effects of DMSO on algal cell membranes and organelles really isn't surprising. From my lab training I recall Butyl rubber gloves are suitable for extended contact with DMSO, nitrile gloves can be used if you have an allergy to latex, however nitrile gloves have to be thick (or double up with thinner gloves) but they won't hold out for long against DMSO.

JMMM · 06-06-2017, 11:58 PM

The whole instruction is on this website: Lens Glue , "To separate the older Canada balsam-glued lenses, simply place the lens in a saucepan (or coffee can), cover it with water, and put it on the stove and slowly bring it to a boil. In just a few minutes you will find that the glue has softened and the lenses have separated. For smaller lenses you will find that the action of the boiling water has enough force to shake the lenses loose. Larger lenses may have to be twisted or slid apart by hand (wear gloves!). Keep the lenses submerged, remove from heat, and let the glass in the water cool slowly. Do NOT get impatient and add cold water to the pan! The thermal shock caused by this rapid temperature change is enough to crack the glass. I learned this the hard way with a nice 50mm objective lens many years ago. It split the flint element neatly in half, right down the middle! After cooling, the residue of the glue is easily and thoroughly cleaned from the lenses with acetone, which leaves them ready for re-cementing." Eter pro narcosi is the best solvent for Canada balsam. But be careful- eter can cause fire.

**Digitalis** · 06-09-2017, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by JMMM

Eter pro narcos

Don't you mean Ether Pro Narcosi? Personally I would not recommend this as a solvent due to the fact that Diethyl Ether* is highly flammable, and under certain conditions explosive. Diethyl Ether also has a really nasty habit of easily forming peroxides, the process of peroxide formation is accelerated with elevated temperatures and exposure to light and oxygen. If left to its own devices the resulting crystallized peroxides formed by Diethyl Ether are extremely sensitive to shock. According to reports amounts as low as 5mg are enough to pulverize borosilicate laboratory glassware. Put it this way: I'd rather work with Butanone.

* The MSDS I read categorized the scent of Ether as "Ethereal".

cyberjunkie · 06-09-2017, 02:43 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

I'm not sure, but my best guess would be crystalization/decompostion of the original glue.

It seems like certain lenses are prone to this. For example, one of the lenses I just worked on is a Voigtlander 75mm f/2.5 SL Color-Heliar. A quick search of ebay shows that there are a few of these lenses currently for sale. A couple of them have the same type of "haze" problem that mine had. That leads me to believe that maybe Voigtlander/Cosina used a lens element glue in their manufacturing process on this lens that would not hold up well over time, thereby condemning all of these lenses to a premature failure.

Do you want to know a funny thing?
The lenses that have more problems with cemented groups, according to my experience, are Voigtlander. Not Cosina/Voigtlander, "real" German-made ones, like Apo Lanthar and Apo Skopar objectives made for large format and reprocameras.
Many, many examples show a very peculiar separation that looks rainbow-like.
It seems that Cosina did all its best to be as faithful as possible to the originals

Cheers

Paolo

Fenwoodian · 06-15-2017, 05:05 PM - **1 Like**

.
Latest Update...

Just finished cleaning the doublet, glued it back together and re-assembled the Voigtlander 75mm lens. Then I went outside and took about 60 test shots of my typical subjects.

Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project. The images looked very good and now I've got a nice keeper lens.

Now that I've got one behind me, who knows, if I find another good deal on a lens I'd like to try with separtion/haze in it maybe I'll have to buy it and see if I can do it a second time.

Last edited by Fenwoodian; 06-15-2017 at 05:11 PM.

MarkJerling · 06-15-2017, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

Though if you're feeling bored, heat those two gasses up and you will end up with something that is categorically worse than the sum of its parts, chlorine trifluoride.

Yikes. That's some pretty mean stuff. (I had a read on wikipedia)

**Digitalis** · 06-15-2017, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project.

Out of curiosity which adhesive did you use to re-cement the lenses?

mee · 06-15-2017, 06:28 PM

Congrats on your lens repair!

I bought a lens in UGLY condition. I didn't know it had haze in it or why it was listed in UGLY condition, but I found that out after I got it. I only bought it for parts but, for fun, I decided I was going to take it apart and clean the haze... easy peasy right? nope. Apparently FA zooms are designed to never be taken apart.. they are elaborate Rube Goldberg-esque builds.

So I got the parts I wanted (contact pins and springs), but never could get the lens completely apart. And now don't know how to get it back together. So I have lens parts and a half disassembled FA zoom on my coffee table... been there for months.

Fenwoodian · 06-15-2017, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

Out of curiosity which adhesive did you use to re-cement the lenses?

I did some research, and ended up purchasing "The Original Super Glue - Clear Drying - Glass Adhesive". .06 fl oz and I believe it cost me $6 USD

It is water resistant, remains clear after cure and does not discolor. Service temperature range -40 to 150 degrees F

Cures quickly when exposed to sun or UV lights.

I applied it to the concave lower lens element in my dark basement. After placing the convex upper element on the lower element, the glue spread out evenly and without any air bubbles between the two lens elements. In the basement, the glue did not set up and remained in its' liquid form. The little bit that oozed out of the edges was easily cleaned up with acetone.

One warning.... It sets up IMMEDIATELY once you take it outside into the sun. After only about 5 seconds in the bright sunlight the two lens elements became firmly bonded. I left the elements out in the bright mid-day sun for about 5 minutes just to make sure the cure was complete.

**Digitalis** · 06-16-2017, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

"The Original Super Glue - Clear Drying - Glass Adhesive". .06 fl oz and I believe it cost me $6 USD

Interesting choice, but the results seem to be satisfactory. I would have gone for something specifically designed for optical components - but of course such materials suddenly command ten times the cost of regular adhesives soon as you add the phrase "scientific optical grade" in their description.

What did you use to align the elements?

Fenwoodian · 06-16-2017, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Digitalis

What did you use to align the elements?

Just my finger tips and eyeballs.

**tonezime** · 06-18-2017, 12:12 PM

Nice work! Thanks for sharing the story. Are the test photos at all interesting? Maybe before/after pictures?

JohnBee · 06-18-2017, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Fenwoodian

.
Latest Update...

Just finished cleaning the doublet, glued it back together and re-assembled the Voigtlander 75mm lens. Then I went outside and took about 60 test shots of my typical subjects.

Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project. The images looked very good and now I've got a nice keeper lens.

Now that I've got one behind me, who knows, if I find another good deal on a lens I'd like to try with separtion/haze in it maybe I'll have to buy it and see if I can do it a second time.

Congratulations and thanks for sharing!
I've never owned or shot a Voigtlander lens personally, though I've often considered trying one out to see how it fared in the vintage collection.

With that said, what particular characteristics would you say these lenses have that make them attractive?

06-06-2017, 05:30 PM	#18
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by stevebrot Regardless of its use as an alternative health remedy and industrial solvent, I suggest strong caution when working with DMSO. I agree, dealing with solvents of any kind should be done with due care. The effects of DMSO on algal cell membranes and organelles really isn't surprising. From my lab training I recall Butyl rubber gloves are suitable for extended contact with DMSO, nitrile gloves can be used if you have an allergy to latex, however nitrile gloves have to be thick (or double up with thinner gloves) but they won't hold out for long against DMSO. Last edited by Digitalis; 06-15-2017 at 06:04 PM.

06-09-2017, 03:29 AM	#20
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by JMMM Eter pro narcos Don't you mean Ether Pro Narcosi? Personally I would not recommend this as a solvent due to the fact that Diethyl Ether* is highly flammable, and under certain conditions explosive. Diethyl Ether also has a really nasty habit of easily forming peroxides, the process of peroxide formation is accelerated with elevated temperatures and exposure to light and oxygen. If left to its own devices the resulting crystallized peroxides formed by Diethyl Ether are extremely sensitive to shock. According to reports amounts as low as 5mg are enough to pulverize borosilicate laboratory glassware. Put it this way: I'd rather work with Butanone. * The MSDS I read categorized the scent of Ether as "Ethereal". Last edited by Digitalis; 06-09-2017 at 03:54 AM.

06-15-2017, 07:29 PM	#26
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874 Original Poster	Originally posted by Digitalis Out of curiosity which adhesive did you use to re-cement the lenses? I did some research, and ended up purchasing "The Original Super Glue - Clear Drying - Glass Adhesive". .06 fl oz and I believe it cost me $6 USD It is water resistant, remains clear after cure and does not discolor. Service temperature range -40 to 150 degrees F Cures quickly when exposed to sun or UV lights. I applied it to the concave lower lens element in my dark basement. After placing the convex upper element on the lower element, the glue spread out evenly and without any air bubbles between the two lens elements. In the basement, the glue did not set up and remained in its' liquid form. The little bit that oozed out of the edges was easily cleaned up with acetone. One warning.... It sets up IMMEDIATELY once you take it outside into the sun. After only about 5 seconds in the bright sunlight the two lens elements became firmly bonded. I left the elements out in the bright mid-day sun for about 5 minutes just to make sure the cure was complete. Last edited by Fenwoodian; 06-15-2017 at 07:43 PM.

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06-06-2017, 07:03 AM	#16
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874 Original Poster	Staff note: This post may contain affiliate links, which means Pentax Forums may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. If you would like to support the forum directly, you may also make a donation here. Originally posted by timw4mail What does 'haze' generally end up being? I'm not sure, but my best guess would be crystalization/decompostion of the original glue. It seems like certain lenses are prone to this. For example, one of the lenses I just worked on is a Voigtlander 75mm f/2.5 SL Color-Heliar. A quick search of ebay shows that there are a few of these lenses currently for sale. A couple of them have the same type of "haze" problem that mine had. That leads me to believe that maybe Voigtlander/Cosina used a lens element glue in their manufacturing process on this lens that would not hold up well over time, thereby condemning all of these lenses to a premature failure. Last edited by Fenwoodian; 06-06-2017 at 07:40 AM.

06-06-2017, 09:11 AM	#17
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Digitalis Full immersion into Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO)@ 120 °C for a few minutes should do the trick. Regardless of its use as an alternative health remedy and industrial solvent, I suggest strong caution when working with DMSO. It easily penetrates skin and commonly-used hand protection and will carry any contaminants with it into the tissues. By way of explanation, I was a biologist of sorts in another life and at one time the group I was working with explored use of DMSO for field extraction of pigments and other substances from marine algae (seaweed). We found it to work well, but were a bit disturbed to note that despite wearing fairly thick rubber gloves, even incidental splashes of DMSO onto the glove would result in almost instant garlic taste in our mouths (indicative of DMSO exposure). Part of the project was to do before/after electron micrographs (TEM) of the algal cells to establish the degree of cellular disruption, if any. The images showed profound disruption of both chloroplast and mitochondrial membranes. At that point, we decided that field use was not a good idea and scrubbed the project. Dimethyl sulfoxide - Wikipedia Steve

06-06-2017, 11:58 PM	#19
JMMM New Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 24	The whole instruction is on this website: Lens Glue , "To separate the older Canada balsam-glued lenses, simply place the lens in a saucepan (or coffee can), cover it with water, and put it on the stove and slowly bring it to a boil. In just a few minutes you will find that the glue has softened and the lenses have separated. For smaller lenses you will find that the action of the boiling water has enough force to shake the lenses loose. Larger lenses may have to be twisted or slid apart by hand (wear gloves!). Keep the lenses submerged, remove from heat, and let the glass in the water cool slowly. Do NOT get impatient and add cold water to the pan! The thermal shock caused by this rapid temperature change is enough to crack the glass. I learned this the hard way with a nice 50mm objective lens many years ago. It split the flint element neatly in half, right down the middle! After cooling, the residue of the glue is easily and thoroughly cleaned from the lenses with acetone, which leaves them ready for re-cementing." Eter pro narcosi is the best solvent for Canada balsam. But be careful- eter can cause fire.

06-09-2017, 02:43 PM - 1 Like	#21
cyberjunkie Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Chiang Mai, Bologna, Amsterdam Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,198	Originally posted by Fenwoodian I'm not sure, but my best guess would be crystalization/decompostion of the original glue. It seems like certain lenses are prone to this. For example, one of the lenses I just worked on is a Voigtlander 75mm f/2.5 SL Color-Heliar. A quick search of ebay shows that there are a few of these lenses currently for sale. A couple of them have the same type of "haze" problem that mine had. That leads me to believe that maybe Voigtlander/Cosina used a lens element glue in their manufacturing process on this lens that would not hold up well over time, thereby condemning all of these lenses to a premature failure. Do you want to know a funny thing? The lenses that have more problems with cemented groups, according to my experience, are Voigtlander. Not Cosina/Voigtlander, "real" German-made ones, like Apo Lanthar and Apo Skopar objectives made for large format and reprocameras. Many, many examples show a very peculiar separation that looks rainbow-like. It seems that Cosina did all its best to be as faithful as possible to the originals Cheers Paolo

06-15-2017, 05:05 PM - 1 Like	#22
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874 Original Poster	. Latest Update... Just finished cleaning the doublet, glued it back together and re-assembled the Voigtlander 75mm lens. Then I went outside and took about 60 test shots of my typical subjects. Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project. The images looked very good and now I've got a nice keeper lens. Now that I've got one behind me, who knows, if I find another good deal on a lens I'd like to try with separtion/haze in it maybe I'll have to buy it and see if I can do it a second time. Last edited by Fenwoodian; 06-15-2017 at 05:11 PM.

06-15-2017, 05:15 PM	#23
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,403	Originally posted by Digitalis Though if you're feeling bored, heat those two gasses up and you will end up with something that is categorically worse than the sum of its parts, chlorine trifluoride. Yikes. That's some pretty mean stuff. (I had a read on wikipedia)

06-15-2017, 06:08 PM	#24
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Fenwoodian Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project. Out of curiosity which adhesive did you use to re-cement the lenses?

06-15-2017, 06:28 PM	#25
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Congrats on your lens repair! I bought a lens in UGLY condition. I didn't know it had haze in it or why it was listed in UGLY condition, but I found that out after I got it. I only bought it for parts but, for fun, I decided I was going to take it apart and clean the haze... easy peasy right? nope. Apparently FA zooms are designed to never be taken apart.. they are elaborate Rube Goldberg-esque builds. So I got the parts I wanted (contact pins and springs), but never could get the lens completely apart. And now don't know how to get it back together. So I have lens parts and a half disassembled FA zoom on my coffee table... been there for months.

06-16-2017, 12:45 AM	#27
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by Fenwoodian "The Original Super Glue - Clear Drying - Glass Adhesive". .06 fl oz and I believe it cost me $6 USD Interesting choice, but the results seem to be satisfactory. I would have gone for something specifically designed for optical components - but of course such materials suddenly command ten times the cost of regular adhesives soon as you add the phrase "scientific optical grade" in their description. What did you use to align the elements?

06-16-2017, 08:39 AM	#28
Fenwoodian Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,874 Original Poster	Originally posted by Digitalis What did you use to align the elements? Just my finger tips and eyeballs.

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06-18-2017, 12:12 PM	#29
tonezime Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 445	Nice work! Thanks for sharing the story. Are the test photos at all interesting? Maybe before/after pictures?

06-18-2017, 01:06 PM	#30
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by Fenwoodian . Latest Update... Just finished cleaning the doublet, glued it back together and re-assembled the Voigtlander 75mm lens. Then I went outside and took about 60 test shots of my typical subjects. Based upon a careful analysis of the test photos, I believe that I was successful in this first ever re-cementing lens element project. The images looked very good and now I've got a nice keeper lens. Now that I've got one behind me, who knows, if I find another good deal on a lens I'd like to try with separtion/haze in it maybe I'll have to buy it and see if I can do it a second time. Congratulations and thanks for sharing! I've never owned or shot a Voigtlander lens personally, though I've often considered trying one out to see how it fared in the vintage collection. With that said, what particular characteristics would you say these lenses have that make them attractive?