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11-10-2017, 02:12 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
APS-c is a film format. Advanced Photo System - Wikipedia

It stands for Advanced Photo System - Classic, which was a hybrid film/digital casette medium that was doomed from the outset to be overtaken very rapidly by full digital, as anyone with half a brain could have seen at the time. I remember when it was introduced discussing it with others with a general air of disbelief. The 16mm x 25mm APS-c format was adopted (more-or-less) as a sensor size in early DSLR cameras possibly because some camera makers already had the lens designs for it, and back then FF digital sensors were very expensive to make.

But you surely already knew that. Perhaps you did not spot it on the box, or it was never there. I always do a bit of prior research before I buy stuff.
QuoteQuote:
Advanced Photo System (APS) is a discontinued film format for still photography first produced in 1996. It was marketed by Eastman Kodak under the brand name Advantix, by FujiFilm under the name Nexia, by Agfa under the name Futura and by Konica as Centuria.
Ya there were so many of those formats around, I didn't pay attention to many of them. If someone I knew didn't own one, I didn't know about it. Just because some photography company invented it, doesn't mean it was relevant to anyone. Photography companies did all kinds of crazy things, most of them not worth paying attention to.

As I said, it was irrelevant info. The camera worked with my lenses, there were no Pentax FF bodies that did work with my lenses. It was the same lens mount I was used to. And there simply is not much difference between FF and APS-c when shooting. At least not for my shooting style.

I'm really not into camera minutae only useful in Trivial Pursuit, Camera Version. Now if that information would have made one iota of difference to my camera purchasing decision, I'd be impressed. As it was, I bought the camera I like with the lenses I wanted, determined by looking through the camera with the lenses i wanted on the camera. Do that and you can't go wrong. Going with equivalence you can mess up big time.


Last edited by normhead; 11-10-2017 at 02:22 PM.
11-10-2017, 02:17 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm sorry, Dan, but it seems to me you're trying to make sense of his video by skipping over the many things that don't. Especially over how he's making a point in (ab)using "equivalence".
Are you referring to me or there is another Dan you responded to? I'm asking because I don't know what are you talking about.
11-10-2017, 02:23 PM - 1 Like   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
Are you referring to me or there is another Dan you responded to? I'm asking because I don't know what are you talking about.
Audiobomber is also Dan.

The more Dans the merrier.

I get it though, I hate it when there's another Norman in the room.
11-10-2017, 02:28 PM - 1 Like   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Audiobomber is also Dan.

The more Dans the merrier.

I get it though, I hate it when there's another Norman in the room.
Ah, ok. Now it makes sense. Anyway, Tony Northrup is like a bad comedy show lately. I think I preffer Rishy, from DPreview, instead of Tony Northrup.

11-10-2017, 02:48 PM - 1 Like   #140
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This again? Are we listening to the Oldies Station, playing all the greatest hits of all time. Boring, and uninformed.

The FF lenses I have are among the highest quality lenses for their purpose.

There's no reason for a DA version of the 100mm macro lenses, for example. Absolutely none. (OK, release one with the newest focus motors and maybe there's a reason to replace my FA100 f2.8)
11-10-2017, 03:00 PM   #141
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Indeed, I was referring to Audiobomber. Sorry for not being specific.

DPReview is now too busy advising people to put their money in every Kickstarter scam to care about "equivalence".
11-10-2017, 03:07 PM - 2 Likes   #142
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Okay fellas, enough on the DPR bashing - we've been here before and it didn't end well!

Thank you


11-10-2017, 05:56 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The more Dans the merrier.
I am John but my son is Dan and he is learning the fine art of DSLR photography with the K10D and DA 40 Limited I gave him for starters.
11-10-2017, 06:00 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by jddwoods Quote
I am John but my son is Dan and he is learning the fine art of DSLR photography with the K10D and DA 40 Limited I gave him for starters.
Indoctrinate them early always I say. I don't know what happened to me, neither my parents nor my kids ever bought pentax cameras. My dad was always happy with his Rochfles twin lens reflex, others in the family used Nikon, Olympus, Minolta and Canon. We don't even have two the same.

Last edited by normhead; 11-11-2017 at 05:56 AM.
11-10-2017, 09:00 PM   #145
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Pentax began producing D FA (full frame digital) lenses in 2004. All that was available and compatible (in digital) was APS-c bodies for the next decade. I wonder if they thought full frame lenses would perform on APS-c bodies? Or perhaps they just put the cart 10 years before the horse (K-1).
11-11-2017, 01:32 AM   #146
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I don't know about the two D FA macros, but I'm sure the DA* 200mm, DA* 300mm and DA560mm became worse just as Ricoh Imaging announced they're actually full frame lenses.
11-11-2017, 02:20 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't know about the two D FA macros, but I'm sure the DA* 200mm, DA* 300mm and DA560mm became worse just as Ricoh Imaging announced they're actually full frame lenses.
Turns out that Ricoh/Pentax know what they're doing (while internet togs don't), quel surprise!

11-11-2017, 03:31 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Tony Northrup posted a video a while back that I hadn't watched until just now. He makes a very reasoned argument against using full-frame lenses on crop sensors
While I have read this thread (and contributed) i have only just looked at that video.

What a load of tripe. The only thing i don't understand is how someone can talk such nonsense with such an air of confidence. Isn't he aware that he does not understand his subject?

BTW, he refers to a measure by dxomark of "perceived megapixels", but I could not find any reference to this measure on the dxomark website. Can someone give a dirct link?
11-11-2017, 04:01 AM   #149
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Yes, DxOMark is making up those "perceived megapixels" - the resolution numbers you're seeing in their lens tests.
11-11-2017, 08:54 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
What? The exposures didn't work? The images aren't the same, but the exposure worked. That's the point. You can use one camera as the light meter for the other, in fact I several times used the *ist as an exposure meter for older film cameras. Because ƒ4 is ƒ4.

If you want to talk about DoF that's different.
Of course exposure is the same, but exposure with a digital camera is dead simple. The camera does it automatically, I adjust EV when required, and if not, I can very easily change brightness in post. I need to control everything else. I was trying to blur the background, like he did in the book, or close my aperture down to make sure the entire landscape was in focus.He was somewhat aware of equivalence because he said if you have a digital body, you should use one less stop than his film camera. Which would have been fine if I was shooting APS-C. Imagine the diffraction I was causing, shooting a tiny sensor compact camera at f/16.

I know you understand equivalence theory, Norm. You don't see the use of it, and Northrup's presentation style riles you up. Equivalence explains a lot of things that confuse newbies, and from this discussion, there are still plenty of experienced photographers who do not understand or are unwilling to understand what it is, and what is not. Manufacturers play on the lack of understanding by using equivalent focal lengths with real apertures. The RX10 IV has an 8.8-220mm f2.8-4 lens. It is not 24-600mm f2.8-4. Converting to FF equivalent focal lengths must also include equivalent apertures in order for me to understand the camera's operating parameters, I can calculate that the RX-10 has a 24-600mm f8-11 FF equivalent lens. Now I can compare it's operating range with my K-3 and DA 55-300mm f4.5-6.3 PLM, which is 83-450mm f6.8-9.5. Or with my DA*300mm with 1.4X RC, which is 630mm f8.4. That's a pretty impressive compact but for $2500 CA, I'll pass.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you want the same images as someone else, buy exactly what he has. You have to do that anyway. Messing around with thinking equivalence will get you exactly the same image is a myth. It will get you in the ballpark, but after that, other variables will take over. IN that sense, there is no such thing as equivalence. Just some ball park numbers that don't take into account variations in lens design and how distance from the camera affects the image.
For equivalence:
  • Shutter speed, exposure and distance from the subject (perspective) must be the same
  • Focal length and aperture must be adjusted for crop factor
  • Sensors must be of similar technology (current sensors quality within 1/3 stop, the exception being Foveon)
  • Resolution will vary depending on number of pixels and lens sharpness
  • FOV, DOF, DR, perspective, diffraction and noise will all be similar. For me, this is where the meat is, and it is explained by equivalence theory, not by the exposure triangle.
.
I cannot do what a K-1 does with an FA 50mm f1.4 at widest apertures, using my K-3 and FA 35mm f2. I can get similar images from f2.8 and up. Sure, there will be some differences but the photos will be very similar in the parameters that I control and that matter most to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Audiobomber is also Dan.

The more Dans the merrier.

I get it though, I hate it when there's another Norman in the room.
There are always two Dans. Everywhere I go, two Dans. My best friend growing up was a Dan. At work there were two Dans. Believe it or not, TwoDan1 is my Outlook email address.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't know about the two D FA macros, but I'm sure the DA* 200mm, DA* 300mm and DA560mm became worse just as Ricoh Imaging announced they're actually full frame lenses.
I don't think there's much doubt that the D FA 100mm macro would have been smaller, less expensive and just as capable if it had been designed for APS-C. Long telephotos don't seem to vary much, the recent 300mm f4 lenses for Nikon FX and m4/3 are pretty similar in same size nd weight. The new 11-18mm f2.8 would be much larger and more expensive if it were designed for FF. The D FA 50mm f.1.4 would be smaller and cost less if it was a DA* lens. The reason that Pentax has the most complete stable of APS-C lenses is because we did not have a FF body. Fuji is rapidly catching up with its lens environment for the same reason, whereas Pentax now needs to pump out FF lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lord Lucan Quote
While I have read this thread (and contributed) i have only just looked at that video.

What a load of tripe. The only thing i don't understand is how someone can talk such nonsense with such an air of confidence. Isn't he aware that he does not understand his subject?

BTW, he refers to a measure by dxomark of "perceived megapixels", but I could not find any reference to this measure on the dxomark website. Can someone give a dirct link?
What is it specifically that you don't agree with in the video? What is it about equivalence that you don't get?

Here is an explanation of Perceptual Megapixels: Perceptual Megapixel: Lens Sharpness Boiled Down to a Single Number

DXOMark, lens testing protocols: DxOMark lens testing protocol and scores - DxOMark

Last edited by audiobomber; 11-11-2017 at 09:12 AM.
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